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1941 Generator

Started by Alfred, April 20, 2009, 09:38:02 PM

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Alfred

The generator on the 41 I picked up this fall has been making some rather nasty bearing noises, which have been getting worse, so it is time to replace it before it seizes.  The problem here is that the previous owner did a negative ground 12 volt conversion to the car.  The car appears to have the original generator model number in place #1102661, but I have no idea how he modified it to run 12 volts.....  Is it possible that someone replaced the internals, or is the large resistor mounted to the side of the housing the key?  I'd like to do a fairly simple drop in replacement, and unfortunately, don't have access to the previous owner to understand how he made this work.

Thanks
CLC # 24066

homeonprunehill

Alfred, look into taking the generator to a shop that can do bearing replacment and let them fix you up. The bearing are common one ball and one bushing. Maybe a little oil from the dip-stick won't hurt Jim P.S. If you have a NAPA store near-by they may have the bearing and bushing in stock.
USED,ABUSED AND MISUSED CADILLACS AND LA SALLES

Doug Houston

Indeed, the ball bearing in front, and the bushing in the rear of the generator should be replaced. Once that's done, the rear bushing needs oiling periodically.

The previous owner of the car has done you a great disservice. Probably he is the only living soul, to know what a garbaged up mess he has stuck you with. Before you run into more brick walls, convert the electrical system back to a 6 volt, positive grounded system.  The car's owners never had trouble with the original electrical system. Only when some dodo "re-engineers" the car, is when nothing works right.

Those systems work like a champ. I have four of them.
38-6019S
38-9039
39-9057B
41-6227D
41-6019SF
41-6229D
41-6267D
56-6267
70-DeV Conv
41-Chev 41-1167
41 Olds 41-3929

Otto Skorzeny

Alfred, Doug is right. It's easier to make the original system function properly than it is to re-jigger everything when you don't know what has been done and what has not been done. If you're building a system from scratch yourself, it's a whole different story.

As I said in another similar post, you have to make sure that every single component of your charging and starting system are in perfect working order according to factory specs.

This means testing the voltage regulator, battery, and generator. When these three components are up to spec and working in harmony with each other, you will have no problems. A weakness in any one component can lead to failure in one or both of the others.

All connections have to be clean and tight and all wires and cables must be of the proper gauge and length. This is especially true with the cables to the starter. They should be of the exact gauge and length of the originals. Cables that are too long or too thick or too thin, etc. can lead to starting problems.
fward

Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for YOURSELF

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S Passmore

I think if these 6 volt systems were so good dont you think Cadillac would still be useing them??  I convert all my cars to 12 volts contrary to people who may think differently, when my friends and I are out on a tour, who do you think they want to follow behind because I have good lights and can acually see where I'm going?  One by one they have all converted.

There are perfectly invisible ways of converting to 12 volts, I have been doing it for 40 years. I guess it depends on what you want to use the car for, driving or winning at shows for authenticity.
I have no idea what the resistor is on your generator Alfred, perhaps some things are still 6 volt and its to cope with that. It would need a large resistor if its for the heater. My guess would be someones just dropped a 12 volt generator in there that was negative earth ,changed the battery for a 12 and swapped all the wires around, then protected everything else with the Resistor.  If everything's working fine otherwise Alfred, just get an electrical shop to replace the bearings if you dont feel capable, its a simple job, then just enjoy the car whatever the voltage.
Steve

Doug Houston

Quote from: S Passmore on April 23, 2009, 08:10:43 AM
I think if these 6 volt systems were so good dont you think Cadillac would still be useing them?? 

You might also say that, if cranking an engine by hand worked so well, why aren't cars still using them? Possibly, if acetylene headlights worked so well. they should still be in use. It's a preposterous proposition.

We're dealing with vintage cars, which were built by competent engineers of the era. There were several reasons why 12 volt electrical systems came into use, and they were good reasons for the vehicles that they were installed on. The issue here is having the vintage car operating and performing as it was originally built. It's almost a matter of having your cake and eating it. If a 6 volt system is to be replaced by 12 volt equipment, the dash instruments from the 6 volt system never work properly. You have to replace them; that's all. The starter and generator have to be made for 12 volt operation. Horns and horn relay, as well. Will the new dash instruments match the dash? Probably not.

If an owner wants to have a 12 volt electrical ayatem on his car, it can be done, but the car will, in some way, not resemble its original form. If he wishes it judged in a meet, the juidges would cut off points for authenticity.

Never entertain the notion that, if you do something, the rest of the world should follow. Conversion of vehicular electrical systems is no new thing, but it's a rare thing to see one done in a truly professional way. They were created by engioneers, and changed by mechanics or tinkers.

Six volt electrical systems evolved into 12 volt systems because it was no longer possible to make a DC generator charging system that would handle the loads on a car's system. Also, in 1960, silicon diode rectifiers became available to incorporate into an  AC generator, which gave charging at idle, and tremendously greater charging capacity.

But, speaking for myself, and many others of us, the cars we have were excellent highway cars, and lighting was good for even today's highways IF THE ELECTRICAL SYSTEM IS IN PERFECT ORIGINAL SHAPE. I drove these cars  68 years ago, and they had safe equipment. We didn' t have quartz-iodine (Halogen) headlighing, so we drove to the capacity of the lighting we had.

I'd be the last to disagree that all round improvement is to be gained by currently used lighting and other goodies. So, if this is what you want, why the H--l are you doing, driving an old car, anyway?
38-6019S
38-9039
39-9057B
41-6227D
41-6019SF
41-6229D
41-6267D
56-6267
70-DeV Conv
41-Chev 41-1167
41 Olds 41-3929

S Passmore


"If he wishes it judged in a meet, the Judges would cut off points for authenticity. "
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My point exactly. Thats just for point chasers, It just depends what you want the car for. I spent years trying to tell Hot Rodders the error of their ways, but hell, its their cars, I cant tell them what to do with it. so I gave up.
How can you use such emotion to bully someone into changing their car back to your standards when the club is filled with "modified"cars. and poor Alfred only has a voltage issue?


" If acetylene headlights worked so well. they should still be in use."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thats also a preposterous comparison, No ones suggesting a physical alteration like that. Your suggesting there's a huge physical difference going on with a voltage change , that's nonsense, So's the idea that everything has to be changed, I have never changed an Amp Meter, Fuel Gauge, Starter or Horns and relays. and  they have worked perfectly well on 12 volt for nearly 3 decades.   
You must have a helluva time with the new tyres that look exactly like Bias but are in fact Radial.  Bet Cadillac club members are the manufactures best customers.
There will always be a divide between those that want absolute authenticity for shows and those that want to drive. I say drive your car and enjoy Albert.


Whit Otis, 1188

For my part, it wasn't really an authenticity issue, but rather simplicity.  Why go to all this bother to change over to 12 volts when the 6 volt systems work perfectly well.  I've heard all this conversion tripe for years, but have been driving my 40-75 on tours in all kinds of weather and in the dark for years with no issues to complain about.  If someone said to me, would you go out to your garage and push the button and drive this car to California tonight, would you do it with confidence?  My answer is no problem, let's hit the road.
Whit Otis
Whit Otis -
1941 6219D Custom
1941 6219D
1940 7533F
1986 Mercedes Benz 560 SEL
1999 Bentley Arnage
2019 XT5
Drawing of AP Sloan Custom by Terry Wenger

autoluke

A related question regarding generators...Would any internal damage result from operating the generator wthout any electrical connections   ie.. no battery or regulator wires  ?
Phil Lukens

caddy_carazy

Hi autoluke
My guess would be no, but why would anyone want to run their generator without connections?   I have run most of my cars during their restorations without wiring looms and have not had any problems but that's not for a long period. Steve

Ken Karrer

Steve,

I converted my 1950 Cadillac to 12v using a powergen and it worked out great.  No one could tell because the generator body simply held an alternator inside.  I changed the coil and bulbs put some in-line resisitors in to take care of the instruments,and a larger (hidden) resisitor to take care of the heater fan...same with the radio.  The starter, horn, and relays worked fine and I could then proceed with installing a.c. and a hidden audio system.  Now, I have a different problem with a '41 Cadillac 62.  It of course has the flat head and that generator is totally different.  Is there a generator from powermaster or some other source that could be used in a Cadillac flat head?
Thanks,
Ken  512-626-7268
Quote from: S Passmore on April 23, 2009, 08:10:43 AM
I think if these 6 volt systems were so good dont you think Cadillac would still be useing them??  I convert all my cars to 12 volts contrary to people who may think differently, when my friends and I are out on a tour, who do you think they want to follow behind because I have good lights and can acually see where I'm going?  One by one they have all converted.

There are perfectly invisible ways of converting to 12 volts, I have been doing it for 40 years. I guess it depends on what you want to use the car for, driving or winning at shows for authenticity.
I have no idea what the resistor is on your generator Alfred, perhaps some things are still 6 volt and its to cope with that. It would need a large resistor if its for the heater. My guess would be someones just dropped a 12 volt generator in there that was negative earth ,changed the battery for a 12 and swapped all the wires around, then protected everything else with the Resistor.  If everything's working fine otherwise Alfred, just get an electrical shop to replace the bearings if you dont feel capable, its a simple job, then just enjoy the car whatever the voltage.
Steve


S Passmore


Hi Ken,
For those that dont care about what it looks like there is a company making an Alternator with the Cadillac braket attached to the front. I dont like this arrangement because it "in your face" on top of the engine. I'm not aware of how a Powermaster is constructed, but are you aware that you can change the front braket from Delco to Delco?   I have done this with 6 volts and put the body and innards of a 12 volt attached to the Cadillac front braket, you have to be careful of the shimming though, just wondering if this could be done with the Powermaster?  You would then have Cadillac front braket and standard looking body with alternator inside.

autoluke

Quote from: caddy_carazy on May 01, 2009, 04:25:40 AM
Hi autoluke
My guess would be no, but why would anyone want to run their generator without connections?   I have run most of my cars during their restorations without wiring looms and have not had any problems but that's not for a long period. Steve   
Steve

Steve:

I realize that this seems to be a strange request,.   I intend to test-operate my rebuilt 346 with the generator  belt connected, but with no electrical connections on the charging circuit .  This could require operating the engine for over thirty minutes, so that I want to preclude any problems.

Phil
Phil Lukens

S Passmore

Hi Phil
I'm fairly certain it would be OK as with no wires connected you dont have a charging circuit, and after all that is just what your regulator does when the battery has had enough, break the circuit. I have run my restorations for more than 30 minutes in the workshop without the looms in and never had a problem.  Good luck. Steve

autoluke

Quote from: S Passmore on May 02, 2009, 01:41:36 PM
Hi Phil
I'm fairly certain it would be OK as with no wires connected you dont have a charging circuit, and after all that is just what your regulator does when the battery has had enough, break the circuit. I have run my restorations for more than 30 minutes in the workshop without the looms in and never had a problem.  Good luck. Steve
[/quote

Many thanks.
Phil Lukens