My new Eldorado!!!!

Started by Rick Biarritz, May 05, 2009, 07:54:50 AM

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Rick Biarritz

Quote from: ottoskorzeny on May 09, 2009, 07:03:27 PM
Rick, please post some photos of your car that has generated such a long discussion.

Great idea!  I will do so tomorrow, after I resize the pics.

Guidematic

Quote from: Rick Biarritz on May 09, 2009, 06:15:55 PM
Dumb question maybe, but what do you mean by the "bell housing"?  The only BH I know of is not on the engine block.  Am I being dense?

You never know until you ask.

But maybe I misused the term since it is always used in this context. The bell housing is actually on the transmission and it houses the clutch or torque convertor. At one time it was part of it was on the engine, and the term carried on. What I meant was the part where the transmission attaches to the engine, or the ears on the back of the block that facilitates the attachment of the transmission.

Mike
1970 Fleetwood Brougham 68169
1985 Eldorado Coupe 6EL57
1988 Eldorado Biarritz 6EL57
1990 Brougham d'Elegance 6DW69
1994 Fleetwood Brougham 6DW69

Guidematic

Quote from: ottoskorzeny on May 09, 2009, 05:49:10 PM
I was just wondering if there is any drop in replacement engine that will work without cutting, welding, fabricating, etc?

I don't own one of these cars nor do I ever intend to. I was just curious if you have to replace an HT400 anyway, is there a substitute that will easily fit and mate with the transmission - or another engine/transmission combo that will work?

There is no direct replacement for this engine. Although the later 4.5's and particularly the 4.9's turned out to be very good engines, proof that the concept worked, they were of the transverse block design which are differant from the longitudinal blocks used in the RWD D cars, and the 82-85 E/K cars.

Although many have replaced the engine with one of the Olds built engines. But this requires quite a bit of conversion work to make them fit in and work.

For me, I would seek out one of the Goodwrench engines. That have all the updates and are good engines. Problem is, this engine is no longer produced and hasn't been since the mid 90's at the latest. Searches though wrecking yards may yeaild one, or locating a car that has the engine istalled at an earlier date. I have done both.

Mike
1970 Fleetwood Brougham 68169
1985 Eldorado Coupe 6EL57
1988 Eldorado Biarritz 6EL57
1990 Brougham d'Elegance 6DW69
1994 Fleetwood Brougham 6DW69

TJ Hopland

As far as the bolt in part of an engine swap you have a few options that were offered in the same body style.   Cadillac 368 which happens to be the same external block as the 425/472/500 was an option in 80 and 81.  Oldsmobile V8's were an option in one form or another 79-85.  Buick V6's were also an option in most of the cars most of the years.  For any of those motors you would need the proper oil pan, drive shaft extension, starter, and likey some of the accessory mounts.  The electrical and electronics is where it gets more interesting.  The Cadillacs were the only ones that were EFI, the Rivs and Toros had carbs.
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Wynn Moore

Quote from: Chris Conklin #25055 on May 09, 2009, 06:59:19 PM
A voice of dissension, and to just be controversial and play the devil's advocate  >:D: I haven't any personal ownership experience with this engine but have heard all the issues about them since they were only weeks old. But it seems to me that an engine that has lasted 26 years and traveled quite a few miles can't be too bad an engine. It may have cost a bit much or required more diligence to achieve this life span, but it's been achieved and in this case is in a car that is still very much in marketable condition. I don't know that I could complain about that very much.

As with any thread on any message board, a discussion has sort of turned into friendly debate, especially with the introduction of the terms anti-HT4100 and pro-HT4100, which I personally find to be an oxymoron.  Myself I prefer to deal with facts, and it seems to me, that, in looking at the big picture, that overall these engines had major engineering designs, and were a disaster for GM, Cadillac, and least of all the owners.  Sure there are success stories of survivors that went on to have long and fruitful lives, and as an owner of a car with one of these engines, I am extremely glad to hear of these. but the fact remains that the majority of engines gave their owners a monumental headache, and that if faced with the same buying decision again, would simply say "I'll Pass"

Guidematic

#45
 Not all of these engines were the same. The early engines no doubt were the ones that gave GM most of the headaches, but they got to it to correct the problems. The biggest problem was the migration of the cylinder head on the block that caused head gaskets to fail. This was caused by the use of split dowels in the block. A revision to solid dowels and a change on head gasket material pretty much eliminated the problem. Also, there was a high incidence of intake manifold gasket failures. These were actually the most common, but had the effect of dumping coolant into the oil and most that did not really understand these engines quickly pointed to the head gaskets. This was fixed with a change to revised bolts with spring washers, revise torque procedures and a change of material to impacted graphite.

Other problems were worn cams, caused bu coolant leak into the lifter valley from either leaking intake or head gaskets, and wearing distributor gears. An updated distributor drive gear was released to correct this problem.

Main bearing knocks were also common. That was caused by mostly the #1 and #5 bearings having larger than acceptable clearance after warm up. This was a function of the expansion rates in aluminum blocks, but was corrected by adding extra eccentricity in the bearings.

Many problems were also created by a lack of maintenance. I have it on good authority that many of the returned engine that had 30-50,000 miles still had the original oil filters. Also, because of the aluminum content in the engines, bi-annual coolant changes were required without regard to mileage. I have seen several failed engines with coolant that is brown in colour and has a very high acidic content. Overheating this engine also pretty much spelled it's demise, as many engines were subjected to.

One myth, however, is surrounding the porosity of the blocks. That simply was not so, and Mercury Marine had no involvement with this engine whatsoever. As a matter of fact, the identical block casting was used for all HT4100 engines. Some extra ribbing was added during the production of the 4.5 engines to strengthen the block in anticipation of higher outputs in the future, like the 4.9 saw.

Mike
1970 Fleetwood Brougham 68169
1985 Eldorado Coupe 6EL57
1988 Eldorado Biarritz 6EL57
1990 Brougham d'Elegance 6DW69
1994 Fleetwood Brougham 6DW69

Wynn Moore

Quote from: Mike Jones on May 10, 2009, 12:37:02 PM
Not all of these engines were the same. The early engines no doubt were the ones that gave GM most of the headaches, but they got to it to correct the problems. The bigges problem was the migration of the cylinder head on the block that caused head gaskets to fail. Thos was caused by the use of split dowels in the bloc. A revision to solid dowles ans a change on head gasket material pretty much eliminated the problem. Also, there was a high incidence of intake manifold gasket failures. These were actually the most common, but had the effect of dumping coolant into the oil and most that did not really understan these engines quickly pointed to the head gaskets. Tjis was fixed with a change to revised bolts with spring washers, revise torq procedures and a change of material ti impacked graphite.

Other problems were worn cams, caused bu coolant leak into the lifter valley from either leaking intake or head gaskets, and wearing distributor gears. An updated distributor drive gear was released to correct this problem.

Main bearing knocks were also common. That was caused bu mostly the #1 and #5 bearings having larger than acceptable clearance afterwarm up. This was a function of the expansion rates in aluminum blocks, but was corrected by adding extra eccentricity in the bearings.

Many problems were also created by a lack of maintenance. I have it on good authority that many of the returned engine that had 30-50,000 miles still had the original oil filters. Also, because of the aluminum content in the engines, bi-annual coolant changes were required without regard to mileage. I have seen several failed engines with coolant that is brown in colour and has a very high acidic content.Overheating this engine also pretty much spelled it's demise, as many engines were subjected to.

One myth, however, is surrounding the porosity of the blocks. That simply was not so, and Mercury Marine had no involvement with this engine whatsoever. As a matter of fact, the identical block casting was used for all HT4100 engines. Some extra ribbing was added during the production of the 4.5 engines to strengthen the block in anticipation of higher outputs in the future, like the 4.9 saw.

Mike

Mike, excellent post concerning the "engineering" flaws of the early engines, and without a doubt had these not existed and with proper maintenance the engines most likely would have provided many years of reliable service to their owners, but therein lies the fly in the ointment.  From day when Henry Leland made his first Cadillac, it has been touted as "The Standard of the World", and rightfully so.  Through the ensuing years GM and Cadillac had Cadillac as their "Jewel in the Crown" and rightfully so, till finally a Cadillac became synonymous with "The Best of Anything", such as "The Cadillac of barbeque grilles, dishwashers etc.", and in fact, despite its recent history of mistakes, the expression is still used in some circles  Sad to say, it might eventually fall by the wayside such as the expression "Built like a Mack truck".  To get to my point, it is my opinion, that the average Cadillac bought and still buys a Cadillac with the thought in mind, that they are buying the best that the Automobile industry has to offer, and obviously this reputation was greatly tarnished with the introduction of the HT4100 engine.  Hopefully GM can resurrect themselves to some level of their past glory, because, from what I have heard, current Cadillacs, are once again, a luxury car that warrants strong consideration for a prospective buyer looking for a automobile in the luxury class.   

Guidematic


Thank you. I thought I should spell out the problems and the corrections once again for those that had not read my earlier posts on the issues. And to remind those that had and forgotten. I have had some discussions with a person that was in the trenches during these years and was at least partly responsible for the corrections. This along with my experiences working on them during my 10 year tenure as a technician at a Cadillac dealer.

Further, I have done some thought about the sudden and catastrophic demise of engines. So far, my theory lies with the nylon timing gear coming apart and plugging up the oil pick up tube, thereby starving the engine for oil. This mostly seems to occur during long highway runs. Often it is accompanied by the oil pressure light coming on. After engine shutdown, if blowing the engine is averted, the engine is restarted and the light remains off. However, it often re-occurs leading to a bottom end failure. This is a failure that is not unique to the HT4100's. I have heard of several 472/500's suffering the same fate, and no one ever maligns those engines.

Sorry about all the spelling mistakes. I posted in a hurry and had to run out the door. I went back and corrected them all.

Mike
1970 Fleetwood Brougham 68169
1985 Eldorado Coupe 6EL57
1988 Eldorado Biarritz 6EL57
1990 Brougham d'Elegance 6DW69
1994 Fleetwood Brougham 6DW69

Otto Skorzeny

Hey Rick, how far do you live from the Great White North? If you're within 500 miles of Kitchener, Ontario, I'd drive on over to Mike's house and let him look over your car!
fward

Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for YOURSELF

HUGE VENDOR LIST CLICK HERE

Rusty Shepherd CLC 6397

Quote from: ottoskorzeny on May 11, 2009, 03:54:15 PM
Hey Rick, how far do you live from the Great White North? If you're within 500 miles of Kitchener, Ontario, I'd drive on over to Mike's house and let him look over your car!

Or in a worst-case scenario, they could meet somewhere in between.

Guidematic


Yeah, that would be fun.

I have an HT4100 here that I am rebuilding that you could see the complete internals of.

Mike
1970 Fleetwood Brougham 68169
1985 Eldorado Coupe 6EL57
1988 Eldorado Biarritz 6EL57
1990 Brougham d'Elegance 6DW69
1994 Fleetwood Brougham 6DW69

Rusty Shepherd CLC 6397

Quote from: Mike Jones on May 12, 2009, 09:10:35 AM
Yeah, that would be fun.

I have an HT4100 here that I am rebuilding that you could see the complete internals of.

Mike

Well, Mike, meeting somewhere in between your residence and Rick's in the worst-case scenario I had in mind might not be so fun for him, but he might be happy to see if you if arrived on the scene with a tow truck. Hopefully, though, he has one of the "good" (or at least better) HT4100's we hear about from time to time in his Eldorado.

Guidematic


I have no idea where Rick lives, but I'm sure he'll make it. Just some good precautionary look see's on the car and he should be good to go.

BTW, I'm a homebody and don't travel much. And before you say it, it has absolutely nothing to do with HT4100's.

Mike
1970 Fleetwood Brougham 68169
1985 Eldorado Coupe 6EL57
1988 Eldorado Biarritz 6EL57
1990 Brougham d'Elegance 6DW69
1994 Fleetwood Brougham 6DW69

The Tassie Devil(le)

Quote from: Mike Jones on May 12, 2009, 05:27:12 PM
BTW, I'm a homebody and don't travel much. And before you say it, it has absolutely nothing to do with HT4100's.     Mike   
I can vouch for that.

I had to twist both his arms, and legs to get him to take Bronwyn and myself, and our luggage down to Michigan last year.

And to top it off, he stayed overnight, in a Foreign Country, and really enjoyed himself to boot.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

Guidematic

Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) (Bruce Reynolds) on May 12, 2009, 10:24:03 PM
I can vouch for that.

I had to twist both his arms, and legs to get him to take Bronwyn and myself, and our luggage down to Michigan last year.

And to top it off, he stayed overnight, in a Foreign Country, and really enjoyed himself to boot.

Bruce. >:D

He he Bruce! You be a funny guy!

Yes, it took you to get me to actually take a trip, and yes I really did enjoy myself. The folks in Michigan were most accommodating, Jerry his wife and Car Freak. But now starting in June we have to have passports to enter the US and I have no intention of getting one. Do US residents need one to enter Canada?

Mike
1970 Fleetwood Brougham 68169
1985 Eldorado Coupe 6EL57
1988 Eldorado Biarritz 6EL57
1990 Brougham d'Elegance 6DW69
1994 Fleetwood Brougham 6DW69

Otto Skorzeny

Yes. We have to have one. This was supposed to start last year but the government wasn't ready for it yet.The Stat Department was all backed up on issuing new passports, etc.
fward

Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for YOURSELF

HUGE VENDOR LIST CLICK HERE

Guidematic


At least it's tit for tat. I wasn't sure.

Mike
1970 Fleetwood Brougham 68169
1985 Eldorado Coupe 6EL57
1988 Eldorado Biarritz 6EL57
1990 Brougham d'Elegance 6DW69
1994 Fleetwood Brougham 6DW69

The Tassie Devil(le)

Quote from: Mike Jones on May 13, 2009, 07:45:13 AM
....... But now starting in June we have to have passports to enter the US and I have no intention of getting one. Do US residents need one to enter Canada?   Mike   
But, you will need one when you come Down Under.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

Guidematic


Yep for sure. But that would be a long planned trip. Plus I would need to become much more affluent to pay my way. It would be a trip of a lifetime for me, though. For now my main expeditions will be to our little "resort" up north. Remember, I'm just a poor old mechanic.

We get a raw deal on passports. $75 and they are good for only five years.

Mike
1970 Fleetwood Brougham 68169
1985 Eldorado Coupe 6EL57
1988 Eldorado Biarritz 6EL57
1990 Brougham d'Elegance 6DW69
1994 Fleetwood Brougham 6DW69

Otto Skorzeny

Ours are good for at least 10 years and I think maybe even 15 and still $75.
fward

Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for YOURSELF

HUGE VENDOR LIST CLICK HERE