1959 Cadillac Disc Brake conversion

[Ben Acheff]

Hi, I'm presently looking into converting my 1959 Cadilliac 6200 series hardtop to front disc brakes.  I've looked at options from various manufacturers including Scarebird, SSBC and CPP.  What I'm hoping to do is find a kit that will allow me to use my existing spindles and existing stock 15" rims.  Does such a kit exist?

Also, I'd like (if possible) to be able to replace my currently stock single-circuit Bendix master cylinder with a two-circuit cylinder, but re-use my existing brake booster due to the tight mounting location and the fact that I just had my booster rebuilt professionally by a specialty shop two years ago. 

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Stewart Homan]

Disc's are a waste of time on a 59 IMHO.

been discussed before but correctly working and adjusted factory brakes are fantastic - don't waste your money!

The dual circuit master cylinder I would say again is debatable - if the emergency brakes is working and adjusted correctly will do the same job!

Converted cars rarely show an improvement!

...and I regularily drive 50's Caddy's round the tight streets on Central London and the 70MPH motorway system!

[Dan LeBlanc]

I have to agree that it is a waste to convert to discs.  I've driven a 62 Cadillac with discs and my own with drums.  I find the drums work just as good as the discs on the front.  If your system is bled properly, good cylinders, shoes, hardware, etc, should have no problem stopping it.

I've had to lock up my 62 Coupe to avoid hitting a deer and that's when I was convinced the drums were just fine!

[Jeff Maltby 4194]

RPM Engineering, Ron 760-329-1886, CA; www.caddyclassicsbyrpm.com

[Ben Acheff]

Stuart, I live in a high-traffic area where people drive like a legion of teenage girls talking on cell phones.  My brakes are fine until they get hot and fade, all hardware's been replaced or certified. 

Dan, the '62 had self-adjusting brakes.  1959 was the last year before that, n' my friend's '60 Caddy was night and day better than mine. 

Jeff, the posted link doesn't work.

Thanks, though.

[homeonprunehill]

The only reason to change is that discs will STOP stright whereas "shoe and drum " will not. But, drum brakes that are properly adjusted will stop much quicker. I wouldn't waste my money ,but, if you insist, go with RPM. jim

[35-709]

Here is a posting I made back in November that you might find of interest.


Always seems to be a fair amount of interest in converting to disc brakes.  There is a good tech article in the December 2008 issue of STREET RODDER Magazine (page 202) about installing front disc brakes on a 1960 Cadillac, brake kit supplied by No Limit Engineering in San Bernardino, CA ---- http://nolimit.net/
One interesting part of the article stated ---- ".... not only did they already offer a kit for the '59-'60-era Caddys, but for the '34-'56, '57-'58, and '61-'68 Cadillacs as well, and in two basic kits: basic, and complete."

[David King (kz78hy)]

My 2 cents

I have just started driving my 58 Brougham after redoing the mechanical systems of the car.  Just focusing on the braking system, my booster is not quite up to a power brake feel (I have GTO w/manual brakes, so I'm used to that).

On the Broughams first outing, with the brakes all fresh and adjusted to the manual specifications, the first 3 or 4 stops it pulled a little to the right.  After that, it is dead straight and solid.  My only issue is a heavy pedal that I do not think is correct for the car, but the system is sound and I feel very good about it in traffic.  The booster may need a little tuning, but that only affects the ease of the pedal, so I'm in the camp that the drums are indeed good enough for normal driving.

If road rallying is in your future, then maybe a high performance system is needed, otherwise just repair to the manual and you should be satisfied.

David

[Ben Acheff]

Geoff, I ran across that same article a while back.  Was hoping to find more info on that company, or see if anyone else had tried them(?) 

Jeff, I checked out RPM engineering, they seem to be the best choice so far.  Thanks for the link.

homeonprunehill, you're right on the money.  They STOP straight.  Everyone else can "bang on drums" from now until the end of time, but I've had waaaaaay too many close calls.

Seriously, if I have -one- more teenage girl yakking on her cellphone while driving her Toyota/Honda/Kia/Hyundai Asian-built plastic'mobile pull in front of me at the -very- last second when I'm slowing to a stop at a red light while I have to transition from "carefully slowing to a stop" to "HOLY MOTHER OF GOD!! I'VE GOT TO STAND ON THE BRAKES TO BRING 2 1/4 TONS OF ANCIENT IRON TO A
A HALT RIGHT FREAKIN' NOW WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY AVOIDING HITTING THE PEOPLE IN THE OTHER TWO LANES ON EITHER SIDE OF ME BECAUSE THE BRAKES ARE PULLING ME IN EVERY DIRECTION IN CREATION EXCEPT STRAIGHT WHILE I WRESTLE WITH A STEERING WHEEL A THIN AS A PENCIL AND WIDE AS A CANYON BECAUSE LORD KNOWS THAT THIS FREAKIN' CAR HAS ALL THE HANDLING OF A CRUISE SHIP AND ALL THE STOPPING DISTANCE OF A TRAIN GAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

*huff, catching breath*

Seriously, there's more steel in my car's -bumpers- than an entire Kia.  N' I'll feel really bad if I have to pry my horn ring out of my bloody chest, and then have to hose off my grill to rid it of the debris left behind by the species known as Teenage girlicus talktext/aloticus.  It's a strange species, known to primarily reside within strange, plastic-laden econo-caskets.

Got it? 

[35-709]

"Geoff, I ran across that same article a while back.  Was hoping to find more info on that company, or see if anyone else had tried them(?)"

Don't know anything else about the company nor anyone that has used their disc brake setup, but STREET RODDER sure seemed to like them.

[Otto Skorzeny]

Ben, I think you misinterpreted Prune's statement.

Disc brakes will NOT shorten your stopping distance. In all likelihood, your stopping distance will INCREASE. Drum brakes are much more efficient at stopping heavy loads like our cars.

The advantage of disc brakes is that they do not suffer brake fade the way drums do - say for example driving down from the top of Pike's Peak.

When it comes to everyday normal driving, disc brakes will not give you any meaningful improvement in performance. You seem to be most concerned with panic stops and stopping distance. I can tell you that with two identical cars one equipped with front discs and one equipped with 4 wheel drums, the car with drum brakes will come to a halt in a shorter distance than the car with discs (everything working to specs, of course).

Now,  if you're constantly jamming on the brakes in one panic stop after another, your brakes will likely fade and the disc equipped car's will not.

I guess my point is that you are seeking to remedy a perceived shortcoming in the braking system that will likely not  be remedied by the solution you are seeking.

A 5000 pound car takes a bit of distance to stop regardless of whether it has disc brakes or drum brakes. It's really a matter of momentum.

When everything's working properly, surprisingly little foot pressure is required to stop the car in normal circumstances. If yours requires heavy pressure or more than would be comfortable for an average woman to stop, I would say that your booster or other components need scrutiny.

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

Well put Forrest.  The laws of physics determine stopping ability, and these include the laws of friction (brake material against drums or discs) which are dependent upon friction area.  The system with the largest contact area wins.  Those are the drums, and as you said, unless brake fade due to heat (or water) is concerned, drums win most every time.  Disc brakes would be a lot cheaper than drums for 18 wheelers, so the reason they use drums MUST be because they are more effective.
Greg

[Ben Acheff]

ottoskorzeny no, I didn't misinterpret the statement.  Here's the money quote from my above reply:

"....WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY AVOIDING HITTING THE PEOPLE IN THE OTHER TWO LANES ON EITHER SIDE OF ME BECAUSE THE BRAKES ARE PULLING ME IN EVERY DIRECTION IN CREATION EXCEPT STRAIGHT". 

Now let's examine this part:

Now,  if you're constantly jamming on the brakes in one panic stop after another, your brakes will likely fade and the disc equipped car's will not.

See my earlier reply closer to the beginning to Stuart's comment:

Stuart, I live in a high-traffic area where people drive like a legion of teenage girls talking on cell phones.  My brakes are fine until they get hot and fade, all hardware's been replaced or certified.


Before the fans of drum brakes burn me at the stake for being a heretic for even imagining this, rest assured, I have a good reason for wanting discs. 

N', just to put things in perspective, I used to work on drum brake assemblies for the U-Haul company, specifically I installed and adjusted them on their heavy car trailers.  I'm no stranger to drums.  

[Stewart Homan]

Hi Ben,

I'm really surprised your drum brakes aren't doing the job!

Regardless, drum brakes are more effecient from around 30 MPH - it's constant braking on and off in the 50-80 mph freeway type driving that they'd show and improvement!

I've just got back from being in my '54 convertible right in heavy central London rush hour traffic, which actually hasn't yet been serviced for this summer and the brakes pull up straight and true every time!

Funnily enough, I've often thought about the potentail of fitting the self-adjusters to an earlier car but never really has the need arised!

Before wasting any money, I'd see if you can get a drive in a converted car to see if it's what you want!

At the end of the day, it's your car so if you get peace of mind knowing you have disc brakes, then go for it! (don't junk the old bits though!)

Good luck!



Stewart

[Chris Conklin]

Ben, have you received an answer to your original query about the spindles, wheels, and booster? I don't have any answers for you, just curious and perhaps we can put this back on track. Anybody have knowledge for Ben? It appears your mind is pretty well set on discs (front only?). Please post your progress for us. I'd be curious about cost too. Thanks.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

I will toss in my little bit here and say that under normal driving, that is when every other vehicle in the line of traffic has Drum Brakes, then everything is sweet.

But, for us that live in hilly areas, and like to drive a little bit quicker than some, and like to be able to slow sufficiently to get around the descending road as it winds down a mountainside with a couple of hairpin bends in the way, then forget about the Drum Brakes, and go for the Discs on the front at least.

I know for a fact, and experience, that Drum Brakes work far better than Drums when cold, but once heat comes into play, give me Disks every time.

There are only so many feet that can be put on the Brake Pedal at any one time to attempt to pull up 2 1/4 Tons of rapidly moving American Iron.

Boy, even pulling the Gear Selector back to the Low Gear sometimes isn't a good idea as one has to take a hand off the steering wheel, and as well as the feet on the pedal, one NEEDS to keep the hands on the wheel to give some gripping power and more force to the feet.

Bruce.

[Porter]

Let's play the Devil's advocate here.

If drum brakes were better the new cars would still be using them ?

Can you easily upgrade a 61-68 Cadillac to front disc brakes  with factory bolt on parts ? Yes.

Was the 65 Corvette the first American car with disc brakes ? AFAIK , rear parking brake assembly was a PIA, same with later model Cadillac's too - an inner drum brake system in the rear - don't quote me on the Cadillac systems here.

Why did they install disc brakes on the front first ?

Why were rear disc brakes optional ?

What's involved with a 59 front disc brake conversion ? Not my balliwick

There are companies that have done the research and sell bolt on kits - for a profit of course.

Have you ever experienced a four wheel drum brake car with brake fade ? Marone .......

Is a dual MC system safer ? You betcha ....... what genius engineer thought of that idea ? Maybe he front ran the ambulance chasers - or they created the idea.

Just some food for thought here, all part of the evolution. Same with fuel injection systems and every other new technology that evolves on automobiles.

Porter

[TJ Hopland]

I have been happy with Scarebird stuff.  Doesnt the scarebird conversion use the original spindles?  I have done several kits from them on other cars and they all used the original spindles.   As for the 15" wheel question I doubt you are going to find anything.  For that size car the rotors are going to be fairly large so there would not be room for the caliper.  The way they made the wheels back then always seemed to have that extra step in them that just does not leave you room.   Is there something special about your wheels?   On other cars I that had hubcaps I was able to find other wheels from the disc era that were still able to fit the original covers.  One car has nice rally wheels all covered up because its was the only thing we could find that fit the cover and the brakes.  On another car I worked on the owner got wheels off a 90's chev truck and attached his original covers to the trim rings that came with the truck wheels.  If you look close you can tell and if you are an expert you know that they are not the correct size for the car but he was able to keep the stock height and for the most part a stock look using much more modern parts.  May be worth a trip to a junkyard just to see whats out there.

[Porter]

Right TJ,

GM bolt pattern lasted for a long time, disc brake clearance is another problem.

I can put 90 Chevy truck rims on my 66 CDV, the wheelcovers need another 1/4" backset clearance though.

Likewise the 66 CDV rims won't install on my 90 G 20.

For a 67 Cadillac front disc brake conversion you will likely need 68 or newer wheels.

Whatever ........

Porter 

[Ben Acheff]

Thanks guys, I think I've found two good candidates now for sources for kits.

Stewart Homan, you're right on the money with this quote: "Regardless, drum brakes are more effecient from around 30 MPH - it's constant braking on and off in the 50-80 mph freeway type driving that they'd show and improvement!"[/b]

Where I live, I need to almost immediately turn onto a 45-55 mph highway with stoplights every 2-10 miles which is always congested with traffic.  N' I'm in no mood to mount a teenage girls' Toyota on my front bumper in a permanent manner, (if you get what I mean).