GM Bankrupt

[PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192]

So GM has filed for bankruptcy. I'd love to hear what people think about this as many people on this forum had said that this was the answer. As a generalisation [no pun intended !] people who were in favour of the filing of chapter 11 bankruptcy felt that the unions were a major problem - so I was wondering how they felt about the 60% nationalisation of GM. My personal view on this is that if a company has failed in the market economy it should be left to close down - I take the same view with the banks. However I think that many of the nationalised companies that we used to have in the UK ie. the railway system, the gas , electric and telephone systems were run much better and cheaper for the customer than they are now run under private ownership.
So , to sum up , I am interested in people's opinions on this matter.
Phil   

[Mike Josephic CLC #3877]

Hi Phil:

Overall -- a sad day in American history.

As somebody said in another posting series -- this was not a "real" Chapter 11
bankrupcy filing in the traditional sense.  It was a government orchestrated take-over
of one of our largest corporations.  Here we go into the great world of Socialism.

GM did this with the government holding a gun to their head -- they had no choice
after "borrowing" all those billions from Obama and company.  The UAW gave back alittle
(for show), the bondholders, stockholders all got the shaft and now our beloved company
will be building "Obamamobiles" that nobody wants.  GM stock was delisted today from the
exchange as per usual procedure in a filing like this.

Some have said in other postings "Why can't Cadillac compete as a separate entity apart
from GM since they design their own cars?"

This would not be workable -- you would be surprised at how much infrastructure "behind
the scenes" that central service systems in a large corporation provide.  These are the shared
services such as:  Information Systems, Accounting, Environmental Protection, Public
Relations, etc.  Cadillac on their own could not affort this and would be quiclky bankrupt.

Mike

[Aaron Hudacky]

It is unfortunate that GM allowed itself to degrade to the point it did, but I thought bankruptcy might be a possiblity starting several years ago. I don't know much about economics, but you merely have to compare current GM offerings with old ones to see that something is different. When GM sold EMD in 2005, it implied to me something wasn't right; it was as if GM was selling a successful entity to try to move cash into it's failing operations.

Job preservation, or at least a half-hearted attempt at it, is the only good reason I can see for the government making loans to GM and Chrysler. It isn't right that the loans were made. If you sell garbage, you go out of business. The economic downturn has been blamed, but the depression was worse, and GM didn't file then. But, Cadillac still made V-16s, 12s and reliable V-8s, not to mention what the other divisions made,  and didn't rely on badge engineering to the extent they do now with offerings like the Escalade. The end product was undoubtedly better for the time compared to what is being offered now. I would be sorry to see the old GM file for bankruptcy, but the current GM is getting exactly what it deserves. I feel sorry for the factory workers, but GM management, Chrysler management and UAW management are entirely responsible for this situation. Hopefully GM will be torn apart and restructured to be much better and stronger, or fail and make way for another company that might be able to become what GM once was.

[RobW]

"If you sell garbage, you go out of business"
Interesting that the same gov't that forced GM to sell garbage now owns them. Remember years ago when they  placed unmeetable demands for fuel economy, safety, etc on the big 3. How did those ugly massive bumpers affect sales in the mid to late 70's? How about the HT4100 that was never intended for the full size caddies but was thrown in to meet EPA fuel regulations? Just of a few of the contributing factors for the mess of today.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Everyone is complaining about the Government causing this and that.

Hey, if people want change, vote the offending Government out of office!

If you don't want the Parliamentary Members to do things, Lobby harder than those corporations and Activists that do want the things that we don't want.

You have to remember, that the Elected people do what the majority want.   If they don't, then they will soon lose their seats.

Bruce.

PS.   The above statement isn't being Political.   Just a fact.

PPS.   If General Motors made the best vehicles, then all the other manufacturers would have gone out of business long ago.

[EldoradoRedd1]

Well i would luv to see wat happens in the next 3-4yrs. Hopefully GM can bounce bac. Sad situation

[David #19063]

As I remember.

American cars had to use unleaded only in 1974.

However, foreign cars did not have to.  They were allowed to be designed and run on leaded gas for many years after.

It was an unfair advantage to the foreign cars over the American cars.

Leaded gas was much cheaper than unleaded...and cars ran better on it as well.

We bought a '77 VW Dasher and a '78 Audi 5000S in the late 80's and they did not have catalytic converters, air pumps, etc.

[Derek Sherwood]

I put it this way in another thread, think it's worth a repost:

The government and private interests just scammed the American people and STOLE one of the largest companies left in the country.  Plain and simple.

Regular stockholders are left out in the cold, preferred shares and special interests are taken care of, and Gov.org and UAW end up holding the lion's share of the cards.

If I walked into a bank that was failing and said "I can take care of your money better than these guys" and proceeded to clean out the vault at gunpoint, what would happen to me?

The government just did the exact same thing to GM, and no one will ever be held accountable.

As far as voting them out -- how do you vote out an entire top-heavy one-party system BASED on entitlement and waste to justify their own existence?

Yes, I did say one-party system -- because to me there's no difference anymore between liberal/conservative/democrat/republican based on how they've behaved over the past 12 years since I was old enough to vote.

I actually changed my registration a few years ago to "no affiliation" and will now let it lapse after this past election and the outright piracy of GWB and BHO.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

So, Derek, you are saying that General Motors should actually declare complete Bankruptcy and shut up shop entirely?

Restructuring will keep them going, and if that isn't good enough, I am sure that the Federal Government will keep GM going, even if it is just as a means of National Security.

Got to keep the troops moveable.

Some organisations try to make themselves so big that they cannot be disbanded.

Bruce.

[Otto Skorzeny]

Bruce, this is not a "real" bankruptcy as the laws of the United States are set up.

GM should have been allowed to restructure as it saw fit without ANY government involvement or interference at all.

What would happen in a real Chapter 11, is the vacation of all contracts , including those with the UAW. The company could then renegotiate labor contracts with or without the union.  Instead we have this government owned and orchestrated  charade that pretends to be a bankruptcy.

Nowhere in our constitution does it give the federal government the authority or right to take control of a private business. It's a joke. I seriously hope that there are lawsuits filed by the affected parties to stop this. That goes for Chrysler as well.

[Derek Sherwood]

So, Derek, you are saying that General Motors should actually declare complete Bankruptcy and shut up shop entirely?

Restructuring will keep them going, and if that isn't good enough, I am sure that the Federal Government will keep GM going, even if it is just as a means of National Security.

Got to keep the troops moveable.

Some organisations try to make themselves so big that they cannot be disbanded.

What Otto said.  They should have been allowed to restructure without government involvement.

The UAW and Government got the bulk of the shares in the new GM. 

Same thing that happened in 1980 to Chrysler, only without the government actually stepping in and taking physical ownership.

http: // www .heritage. org /research/regulation/bg276.cfm

If GM had failed, well, Ford and Toyota and all the others would have stepped up and produced cars to meet the demands.

Look at AMC.  They're gone, who misses them?

[Guidematic]

Derek, good to hear from you again.

This latest raping and pillaging of the American people is all but a further chapter of the demise of the United States. GM has been stolen by the banker intrests, and Obama is part and parcel of these banker interests. He is just towing the line for his masters. This is all illegal, but they will once again get away with it.

The pension for stock trade is a sham. That money is owned by the workers of GM, and no party has any right to trade it away, particularly on worthless GM stock, which is now in the penny class. If and only if, GM stock marks a drastic recovery, the pensioners will be out in the cold with no income or benefits.

Mike

[PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192]

Thanks guys,
We had the government run British Leyland , Triumph motorcycles etc. in years gone by and all it did was delay the inevitable. I don't agree that it is "socialism", to me it is big business getting helped by its friends in government. Our government in Britain has/will do the same, why they gave money to those *&%$£" bankers I'll never know , yet we let old people freeze to death in the Winter ! When these businesses fail they should be left to close down, not bailed out with cash strapped tax payers money. The big 3 have been in trouble on and off for years now and, at the end of the day, the people didn't buy their products.
Phil

[Rich S]

Although Americans choosing imports overwhelmingly over the "big Three" is a major factor, there is alot more involved in creating the present situation. For example, foreign companies (Honda, Nissan, Toyota, Mazda, Mitsubishi, Kia, Hyundai, Mercedes, BMW, etc.) have been permitted to build factories in the U.S.A. and employ non-United Auto Worker employees. Japan and Korea do not permit U.S. companies to build factories in their countries. The imports chose to build these factories in Tennessee, Alabama, Ohio and other rural areas--not to employ laid-off United Auto Workers in the blighted areas such as Detroit or Flint, where massive auto industry lay-offs occurred. As pointed out previously, the HT4100 engine was rushed to market to gain compliance with Corporate Average Fuel Economy requirements and avoid strict penalties. It created irreparable harm, and drove many loyal Cadillac customers away. As also mentioned before, the imports were not subjected to the Unleaded Fuel Requirements as quickly as the "big Three" products, back in the seventies. Basically, the imports have had many advantages, creating an unlevel playing field, against the "big Three." There has also been a failure of the marketing efforts of the "big Three" to create a positive impression of their products and role in our country among the American consumers. There are far too many diverse factors involved, leading to the present situatioon, to simply put the blame on the "big Three" products--many of those cars have at least been competitive with the imports for many years. 

[Ralph Messina CLC 4937]

If you think the government seizure of private assets over the past six months has been shocking, wait until you see the outcome. You should remember the name Brian Deese. He’s the key planner on the Auto Task Force. He’s a 31 year old who’s first government job is dismantling General Motors and rewriting the rules of American capitalism.  He’s not quite a graduate of the Yale Law School and has no education in business. He’s never worked in industry, only on political campaigns and in a George Soros funded think tank. The following is a link to the talk show transcript and audio that  goes into full detail: (Copy and paste)
http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/198/26084/
If only half is accurate, it’s truly frightening.

If you are willing to give the administration the benefit of the doubt, think about how well the Nixon Administration’s actions turned out when it “helped” three railroads out of the exact circumstances in 1970. They created Amtrak and promised the government would be out of the business in three years. Forty years later, and numerous interventions that tilted the business playing field in favor of Amtrak, it lost 1.6 billion dollars in 2008 and we’re still counting. Oh BTW, the CEO  and executives were paid millions in tax payer dollars for their sterling efforts. The real crime is the untold opportunity cost of what could have been had private enterprise been allowed to fill the void.

I’m hoping Paul Whyte, this thread’s originator, is old enough to recall and recount what happened in the UK when their government intervened to help British car companies. We can learn a lot from their experience…….if we’re willing to learn from history.

I must be getting cranky as I get older ‘cause I don’t like  “Change”……..

Ralph

Oh yeah, The Auto Task Force has no one on it who has any private sector, much less manufacturing experience. And of the 16 senior members only three drive cars, two  from Japan one Germany

[Ralph Messina CLC 4937]

Dear Phil,

Sorry about renaming you "Paul".

Ralph

[wrefakis]

this is the first thing that we can do something  about

you have to pay your taxes,you have to buy gas,you have no say in who they bail out or why certain parties are "helped" while others are not,

you cringe as you struggle to pay your mortgage,while other "homeowners" are "helped" out,

but this time if you are upset at the disregard of law,and confiscation and redistribution that has occured,

WE HAVE THE POWER THIS ONE TIME TO TELL THEM THIS IS WRONG FOR AMERICA!!!!

DO NOT BUY ANY CHINESE HUMMERS,GM,OR FIAT AUTOMOBILES,BUST THE M&^%$#!@ ((*&^%$ OUT!!!!

I shouted the last 2 lines,live with it

[homeonprunehill]

WHY HASN'T SOMEONE IMPEACH  OBAMA ?? Jim

[PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192]

That'sOK Ralph,
Phil

[RobW]

Chinese Hummers....amazing isn't it? For a measly $500 million. The gov't would have been better off giving GM another 500 million on top of the what is it up to $100 billion and keeping Hummer or just shutting them down!
Not to get too political but what the hell are they thinking? China will soon be the next and only super power. Seems our leaders can't kill the USA fast enough!