1956 CDV Carter carb stalling and leaking fuel.

[Walter Youshock]

Not to mention the gaskets.

Hope you have a supply of them....

[Christopher Petti]

Christopher,

I’m not sure if the new E10 fuel blend could be the cause of the hard starting in your particular case. There is tons of info out there and frankly I’m still unsure. I would leave it up to the experts to raise the issue; I’m just the nuts and bolt type of person..!

I’m not too familiar with the Carter carb; I have the Rochester 4GC in mine. The good thing about Rochester is there are two flush mount screws (primary and secondary bowls) that allowed inspecting the fuel level. From what I notice on the shop manual the Carter shows the same type of arrangement (Fig 10-51 Page 10-C-37). If these are accessible the fuel level should be below or at this level, this is the case for the Rochester.

I would suggest removing the carb and rechecked all adjustments. While at the bench you could test that floats are properly closing the flow into both bowls if you have a way to pump fluid (NO GASOLINE) into the carb. In my case I’ve used an electric 12V 5PSI fuel pump for that test. My rebuilt kit had the solid brass float needles, and if I recall one kit also included the seats.

Good luck..!

Thanks Jose, I'll give it a shot. I'll let you know what I come up with. Unfortunately I'm in the middle of moving at the moment and I may not have as much time with the carb at the moment as I want. It just has to be ready for the Woodward Cruise so During this week hopefully I will get the time to test the whole carb. I have a little less than two weeks. Oh and the Pump is brand new.

[Christopher Petti]

Not to mention the gaskets.

Hope you have a supply of them....

Why would I need a supply? The ones I have are brand new.

[dadscad]

Does your carburetor use the stainless heat shim between the carb base and the gasket and is it in the proper place? It sounds like you may have a heat soak issue causing the fuel to boil in the bowl after you shut the engine down. Did your car originally have a heat spacer between the manifold and the carburetor, is it there?

[Christopher Petti]

I remember the shim you are talking about but in the rebuild kit I now have a thick redish pink gasket that goes between the manifold and the carb. Do I still need that shim? I think I may still have it. Honestly? The gas comes out the bores in the throttle body on the passenger side. You think that could be the issue? That wouldn't have anything to do with the hot hard starts though.

[Otto Skorzeny]

Oh and the Pump is brand new.

Unfortunately these days that doesn't mean $hit.

I've had new pumps prove defective  right out of the box.

Brand new (not reman) '56 fuel pumps are available from Airtex for less than $50 at any common auto parts chain (Carquest, Auto Zone, NAPA, Advance, O'Reilly's)

Don't assume that if something is new it must be perfect. Perform the test before hooking it up to the filter bowl.

[dadscad]

On my 63, that shim is vital for the proper operation of the carburetor. The AFB Carter on my car will not idle properly unless that shim is directly under the carb on top of the gasket. It shields the aluminum carb body from the exhaust heat from the cross over in the intake manifold. The 63 and other years of that time frame, also had a plastic spacer about 1/2" thick to further insulate the carb from the heat. Maybe some of the others more familiar with your year can give you the low down on the proper gasket/spacer set up.

The sequence for my 63 is, gasket on the manifold, 1/2" spacer, gasket then the SS shim then the carburetor.

[Walter Youshock]

Evert time you remove the cover, you run a chance of leakage from the top of the bowl.  Also, some adjustments require that the gasket be in place.

One other thing--the first year a single 4bbl Carter became standard was 1957. 

And, yes, that metal shim is needed on the aluminum bowl Carter.  It helps dissipate the exhaust heat, as well as warm the carburetor during warm up so the gas doesn't freeze.

[Dave Shepherd]

No shim under a WCFB. There is no short cut to this that carb must come apart after the FP is checked.

[Otto Skorzeny]

My '56 has a  4bbl Carter and Dave is right, there is no shim on the '56.

[Christopher Petti]

My '56 has a  4bbl Carter and Dave is right, there is no shim on the '56.

Well if i can get another shim I guess I'll try to find one but I don't see how that small peice is going to refract heat? It's stainless steel. I've grabbed a calphalon handle on a pot before it still was hotter than hell. Somehow I don't think that is my problem but I'll try and seek one out. If anyone knows where I could find a stainless steel shim without buying a rebuild kit I'd love to know. ANywho I'm going to test the fuel pump and then take apart the carb again and go through it with a fine tooth comb and see if I can do some experiment to make it work.

Oh you know what, last time I took the top off the carb the engine had been run for about an hour prior and all the chambers in the carb were full. I let the engine cool for almost two hours before I took the top off.

[Christopher Petti]

I just got off the phone with Tim from Daytona Parts Company,
  He cleared up a lot of issues I had. He said a lot of what everyone on here was saying but he put it into sequence for me. The stainless metal shim under the carb only needs to be used on the WCFB's with Aluminum bases. The Original for the 56 should be cast Iron which I do have. So the stainless shim is not required in my case. What he boiled it down to is syncing my carb with the fuel pump. He told me that once I get the car up to operating temperature. I should have a rag ready and with the car idling I should remove my sight plugs which are on the driver side of the bowl. These plugs are about 3/8" in diameter. The fuel may pour out. If it does. Lower your floats a 1/16" then throw two bolts back in to hold down the top and check it again. Tim said to do this until there is no gas coming out. This should also help with the leaking after shut off. I shut the car off and look down the carburator with your flashlight there is no gas dripping from your venturi's. Lower the Floats till there is no gas dripping from the venturei's. Tim said this is due to heat and the new gas we run today expanding. Tim said this will solve your hard start issue as well as gas expanding and coming out the throttle bores. So I am going to stick with my rubber tipped needles that go with the new brass seats that I put in. The rubber tips I am told work better with debri from the gas tank if it's old. The blunt ends can get things stuck on the end and make your carb malfunction. Then my next step is like some of you suggested, lower my floats so that the gas at idle is just below the sight plugs and that should solve my problems. This makes Sense to me. I just wanted to thank all of you again for all your valuable advice. I'm still going to end up doing most of the tests such as the Fuel pump test to make sure what amount of pressure I'm dealing with. Tim said 5.5 is what I should be running but my pump is probably putting out 7. So I am going to sync my Carb with my fule pump to cure my car of these issues. I'll post one more time with the results.

Chris

Here's the Carb experts website. http://www.daytonaparts.com/

[Walter Youshock]

Makes sense.  I did pull out the Mater Parts book and the AFB (aluminum) Carter came out in '57.  The cast Rochester didn't use the tin plate for heat dissipation.

That expanding fuel issue is a real factor in how these carbs perform.  Did they say anything about octane or a preferred fuel additive?  I learned 15 years ago to stop filling at the first shut off of the pump.  One hot afternoon, I collected about 1/2 gallon of gas in a pan as my car sat in the driveway and expanded out the filler pipe. 

It seems like every time we turn around, there is another potential problem with vapor lock, poor economy or some other tweak we have to make in order for these cars to run properly.

[jaxops]

It seems like every time we turn around, there is another potential problem with vapor lock, poor economy or some other tweak we have to make in order for these cars to run properly.

"Amen" Walter!  Isn't that the truth?!

[Walter Youshock]

This fuel expansion thing is really worth looking into.  One reason I went to the Carter AFB from the Rochester was all the changes they made during the year on the settings.

If a higher-octane fuel burns cooler, then today's crap HAS to be affecting far more than just vapor lock and performance.

[Christopher Petti]

Makes sense.  I did pull out the Mater Parts book and the AFB (aluminum) Carter came out in '57.  The cast Rochester didn't use the tin plate for heat dissipation.

That expanding fuel issue is a real factor in how these carbs perform.  Did they say anything about octane or a preferred fuel additive?  I learned 15 years ago to stop filling at the first shut off of the pump.  One hot afternoon, I collected about 1/2 gallon of gas in a pan as my car sat in the driveway and expanded out the filler pipe. 

It seems like every time we turn around, there is another potential problem with vapor lock, poor economy or some other tweak we have to make in order for these cars to run properly.

No not really Walt,
  He said that the reason I am having the gas come out the side of the carb is due to shutting off the engine and the heat rising. He said that after the the engine is shut down the temp rises about 15 degree's which makes the gasoline expand and right now my float levelas are too high so it causes them to drain out the side. I can't believe that happened in your driveway. It expands that much? Wow! Then I should buy in the morning when it's cool and only fill up 3/4 of a tank. As the days goes on and the sun heats up my car I'll get the last 1/4 filled.  Wouldn't that be nice.
He didn't say to much more about today's fuels other than adjusting the floats will compensate for the boil over which is occuring from the heat in my case.

[Walter Youshock]

On a VERY hot day with a full tank, it will expand and come out the filler neck.  Remember these cars have ventilated tanks!

We recently had a show and everybody was saying they could smell gas.  Sure enough, there was a puddle under a Pontiac and the guy had just filled up that morning. 

But, back to the carb issue:  Sure the temp rises after the car is shut off, however, I wonder what the expansion is as the car is idling in 80-85 degree weather? 

I have always had a stumbling problem on the '57.  Pulling out from a stop, the car will lag and hesitate before it agrees to move.  And this is after BOTH the Rochester and Carter carbs.  Could this be one more variable to add to the mix?!?!

[Otto Skorzeny]

My '56 only began expanding and dripping out of the filler neck when Atlanta switched to E10. I now have to be careful not to completely top off the tank when filling up.

[carguyblack]

Chris,
I rebuilt one of these on my 56 myself and it perfomed "satisfactorily". However, I had my second one restored professionally by Jeff "The Old Carb Doctor" and can't say enough good about his work. Google him for the 800 number.  I can't volunteer his time and advice, but you can call him and give him a shot. He may be able to walk you through something without having to send your carb to him. He's extremely precise and clear in his directions to me when I had some issues and an all-around good man! Good luck! Chuck

[Otto Skorzeny]

Chris,

As you have discovered, Tim and Ron at Daytona Parts really know their stuff. They will also rebuild your carb if you choose to go that route.

Ron helped me out of a jam when I had carb trouble with my '56 while on vacation. Coincidentally I was staying in New Smyrna Beach just 2 miles from their shop. He told me what my problem was over the phone and I drove over and picked up a part for $20. 

Chuck's guy sounds good, too.