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Correct method of starting a 390 c.i Engine

Started by Fatz n Finz, August 19, 2009, 06:20:01 PM

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Fatz n Finz

Hi Guys & Gals,

I know this might be a stupid question but, I was kindly given a reply but only half the answer that I wanted in another forum :-

From cold, do you You tap the accelerator pedal a couple of times to close the butterflies Yes / No ?  Then What ?  leave your foot off the pedal ? rest your foot on the pedal ? push the pedal half way down ? I have no literature on the correct method, may be you all can help. The reason I ask is the engine has only done 50,000 mls from new ( Verified ) and I want to " Preserve " the condition for as long as I can !

                                                                 Regards,

                                                                                                  Simon

Otto Skorzeny

#1
To start a cold engine:

Slowly push the pedal to the floor and let it come back up. This pre sets the choke and fast idle.

Turn the key to start.

You should buy a shop manual on ebay for about $30.

You should also buy an owner's manual. Reprints are available. The starting procedure is explained within.

These instructions pre-suppose that your car is tuned up and operating correctly. A misadjusted carburetor will not respond as it should.
fward

Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for YOURSELF

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Wayne Womble 12210

You will be at it all day with that method if it has an old Rochester on it. Most of the time they require about 10 good sharp hits on the pedal just to get enough gas to start it and then it probably wont stay running. I have found that in the real world, every one is different. Find the method that starts it quickly and use it.

Walter Youshock

I agree with Wayne.  Both my Rochester and Carter need good priming before it'll start.  The method in the manuals were written for a car that would be in daily operation, not one that sits in a garage and goes out once or twice a week.  Fuel will both drain back to the tank and evaporate from the carb.

To start a warm engine, hold the pedal half-way down while cranking.
CLC #11959 (Life)
1957 Coupe deVille
1991 Brougham

Otto Skorzeny

I agree with the "find the method that works" approach but one may as well start with the factory recommendation and go from there.

Once Simon starts driving his car it just may work as designed.

I use my car as regular transportation and the correct method starts it every time.
fward

Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for YOURSELF

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Walter Youshock

Mine starts the "Factory Recommended" way on car show days AFTER having been run.  That first crank over in the morning is the challenge.
CLC #11959 (Life)
1957 Coupe deVille
1991 Brougham

kittykatjaz

Every car has its own personality and after a couple of weeks of driving you soon learn what it likes  :)

Coupe

My '57 with a Rochester is exactly as Walter described, a challenge when it has sat for a few days. 1 day is not bad 2 or more takes some cranking. My '62, with an electric fuel pump and a hand choke, starts immediately after 1 slow pump of the pedal to the floor with the choke closed.
1957 Coupe de Ville
1962 Sedan de Ville (4 window)
1993 Allante
1938 Chevrolet Business Coupe (Sold)
1949 Jeepster VJ-2

David King (kz78hy)

#8
My 58 has a fresh engine rebuild and carburetors and they are Rochester 2 barrels.
Everything is set to spec. and the auto start catches almost immediately, cold or warm.  The method in the manual when cold is what has been stated already, depress to the toeboard slowly and let the pedal return. When hot, push down about a 1/2 of the way but do not pump as this will flood it. 

Another difference on the Brougham is the original fuel pump is electric and mounted in the tank, so even an empty carb gets refilled fast.

David
David King
CLC 22014  (life)
1958 Eldorado Brougham 615
1959 Eldorado Brougham 56- sold
1960 Eldorado Brougham 83- sold
1998 Deville d'Elegance
1955 Eldorado #277
1964 Studebaker Commander
2012 Volt
CLCMRC benefactor 197

Director and Founder, Eldorado Brougham Chapter
Past President, Motor City Region

Rare Parts brand suspension parts Retailer via Keep'em Running Automotive

Walter Youshock

I think the problem is the fuel draining back to the tank, so there is no prime in the pump.  These cars didn't have a check valve in the fuel systems or filters.

Having an electric pump like the Brougham would give it an instant shot of pressurized fuel.
CLC #11959 (Life)
1957 Coupe deVille
1991 Brougham

Fatz n Finz

Hey Guys,

Thank for all your info, when I start it after say a day a couple of pumps on the pedal  it's away no probs, when left for some time, like you've said ten pumps rest your foot halfway down , she's away no probs, just thought it seemed a bit severe thats  all ?

                                                   
                                                              Regards,


                                                                                                         Simon

David King (kz78hy)

Simon

On my 66 GTO converible has an unrestored engine and 130k+ miiles.  When the car has sat long enough for the gas to evaporate from the carb., then the engine will spin a for 20 to 40 seconds or so.  I just depress the gas pedal to set the choke and let it spin for about 10 seconds, pump, and repeat until it fires.  Somewhere along this process, it will fire but not catch.  The next attempt is the one that will catch.  I just give it a little gas this time and spin it.  The thing roars to life every time, or at least it has for the last 30 years.  The good news about this is it gives the oil pump a chance to get some oil topside before the thing starts running.  Of course, this engine is so loose that it is really not that much of a concern, but it can only help.

David
David King
CLC 22014  (life)
1958 Eldorado Brougham 615
1959 Eldorado Brougham 56- sold
1960 Eldorado Brougham 83- sold
1998 Deville d'Elegance
1955 Eldorado #277
1964 Studebaker Commander
2012 Volt
CLCMRC benefactor 197

Director and Founder, Eldorado Brougham Chapter
Past President, Motor City Region

Rare Parts brand suspension parts Retailer via Keep'em Running Automotive

Wayne Womble 12210

Quote from: kz78hy on August 20, 2009, 09:38:13 PM
Simon

On my 66 GTO converible has an unrestored engine and 130k+ miiles.  When the car has sat long enough for the gas to evaporate from the carb., then the engine will spin a for 20 to 40 seconds or so.  I just depress the gas pedal to set the choke and let it spin for about 10 seconds, pump, and repeat until it fires.  Somewhere along this process, it will fire but not catch.  The next attempt is the one that will catch.  I just give it a little gas this time and spin it.  The thing roars to life every time, or at least it has for the last 30 years.  The good news about this is it gives the oil pump a chance to get some oil topside before the thing starts running.  Of course, this engine is so loose that it is really not that much of a concern, but it can only help.

David

The bad news is , that oil is full of leaked gas.


David #19063

It is my understanding that cranking the starter over 5-10 seconds will seriously overheat it.

Best to only crank for 5 seconds or less each time with a short cool off period.

Also, pump the pedal between cranking as gas is being pushed up to the carb.
David #19063
1996 DeVille Concours

Otto Skorzeny

That's right. I almost choked when I read that. 40 seconds? Good Grief!

Never crank any car for more than 10 seconds. You can damage the starter and the engine. Even cars that sit and have trouble starting  shouldn't take that long to crank over.
fward

Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for YOURSELF

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David King (kz78hy)

#15
Quote from: kz78hy on August 20, 2009, 09:38:13 PM
When the car has sat long enough for the gas to evaporate from the carb., then the engine will spin a for 20 to 40 seconds or so.  I just depress the gas pedal to set the choke and let it spin for about 10 seconds, pump, and repeat until it fires. 
David


The 20 to 40 seconds would be the time to get the engine started, not actual cranking time. Sorry I was not clear on that. In the next sentence it is mentioned that I spin it for around 10 seconds. Really it is 5-10 seconds because I do not want to stress the starter motor. I guess I let it sit 5 to to 10 seconds before trying again, but this is not all that exact. The only point above is pumping the pedal when the carb is empty at first does nothing as there no fuel in the accelerator pump to be delivered.  I allow the fuel pump to pull some fuel up to the carb and just lightly pump it when it gets there. This is time when it will fire but not completely start. Next time a partial shot of fuel and crank it over and it starts. Otherwise, this thing can flood very easy, so rambunctiously pumping the pedal does not work for me on this car.  As stated earlier, after some time with the car, you will develop the system at works for you and you alter to fit the circumstances at the time based on your knowledge of it.

I'm not sure how this would cause any fuel in the oil, the fuel does not boil out of the carb and the floats seem OK as I have no leaks. The fuel pump is not leaking, yet, as I not been able to smell any fuel in the oil. So far, so good on that one.

David
David King
CLC 22014  (life)
1958 Eldorado Brougham 615
1959 Eldorado Brougham 56- sold
1960 Eldorado Brougham 83- sold
1998 Deville d'Elegance
1955 Eldorado #277
1964 Studebaker Commander
2012 Volt
CLCMRC benefactor 197

Director and Founder, Eldorado Brougham Chapter
Past President, Motor City Region

Rare Parts brand suspension parts Retailer via Keep'em Running Automotive

Otto Skorzeny

I think Wayne is assuming that the diaphragm must be leaking into the crankcase. I don't think that's the case.

This volatile fuel we have today evaporates instantly. If you don't drive the car all the time, all the fuel between the pump and the carb disappears.
fward

Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for YOURSELF

HUGE VENDOR LIST CLICK HERE

Fatz n Finz

Right,

When I went to buy the car the dealer got in it pumped / banged the accelerator several times ( couldn't see what his foot was doing but I suspect he had some pressure on the pedal ) it cranked over fine but did not fire, he did the same procedure again and it started it was running for say 60 - 90 seconds, then he gave it a couple of revs and it settled down. now if you all think this method is acceptable and no adverse damage can occur I will continue with this method.

It just seemed  weird that a person walked into a Cadillac Dealers in 1960 and the salesman got into a brand new Cadillac and started to pump / bang the accelerator pedal and go through this procedure maybe twice on a brand new car, to me if I was the person buying the  " Standard of the World " it would be very off putting.

                                                     Regards,

                                                                                                             Simon.

Otto Skorzeny

When these cars were new, one didn't have to go through all this nonsense. One followed the instructions previously given and it would start right up.

First of all, the cars were new and everything worked like it should.

Second, they were used daily so problem starting wasn't really a problem.

Third, the fuel available then was not at all like the fuel available today. It was less volatile and didn't evaporate as readily. I'd even go so far to say that the burn characteristics of the fuel itself were different than that of today's fuel.

In the US at least we have dozens of different fuel formulations for different times of the year, different parts of the country and even city-specific blends. Back when your car was new there was one blend of gas made for the entire country. The only differences were how much tetra-ethyl lead you wanted for a specific octane rating.

The more your car is driven, the more likely it will start on the first try.
fward

Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for YOURSELF

HUGE VENDOR LIST CLICK HERE

David King (kz78hy)

One other thing I would like to point out.  For that last 15 or so years, most cars have electronic fuel injection which includes several computers to "adjust" many different inputs many times a second.  The electric fuel pump operating around 50 psi charges a system fast and ensures a quick start.

The cars of today and around 15 years older have started the process of making the driving public forget the quirks and issues of the cars before this time.  Just read your 50's Cadillac recommended service schedule.  That would be a shock today if you had to do so much, so often.

Like Forrest said, when new, these cars started fine and were as good as it got compared to everything around them.  Today's standards are very much higher in all areas, safety, mileage, performance, reliability and the list goes on and on.

For me, part of the fun is that fact these cars are not as refined as today's modern versions and that is what the hobby does for me.

David
David King
CLC 22014  (life)
1958 Eldorado Brougham 615
1959 Eldorado Brougham 56- sold
1960 Eldorado Brougham 83- sold
1998 Deville d'Elegance
1955 Eldorado #277
1964 Studebaker Commander
2012 Volt
CLCMRC benefactor 197

Director and Founder, Eldorado Brougham Chapter
Past President, Motor City Region

Rare Parts brand suspension parts Retailer via Keep'em Running Automotive