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breakdown at highway speeds 41 60s

Started by TonyZappone #2624, September 12, 2009, 07:40:54 AM

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TonyZappone #2624

I would be interested in your opinions on this failure.  In the process of moving from Western New York to Saratoga Springs, my friend and I left Brockport early one morning in August: he trailering my 1931 Pierce, me driving the 41 Cad 60S.  Earlier in July I had taken the 41 out for a spirited run on a hot day, and experienced vapor lock-running out of gas symptoms.  Went home, found the waffle filter installed improperly and looking skunky.  Replaced that, tried to duplicate problem, everything seemed ok.  Must mention the first day with the failure temp was in mid 80's.  Also must mention fuel pressure at idle was almost 5 pounds.  Back to moving day.  1 1/2 hours out on US 90, same symptoms.  Limp off at next exit, impossible to keep car running at driving speed.  Changed the condenser, to no avail.  Put Cad in trailer, drove Pierce to Morrisville, N.Y. to a restoration shop friend where car still remains, waiting for a place in line at a very busy shop.  Being an expert on vapor-lock, (not solutions for but experiencing same)  this just doesn't seem to be the problem.  Much icing of fuel line and pump was no help.  My friend who was along on the trip swears it is a coil problem.  I am sure interested in your collective opinions, so I can provide as many ideas to the mechanic as I can.
Tony Zappone, #2624
1936 Pierce-Arrow conv sed
1947 Cadillac Conv cpe
1958 Cadillac conv
2016 Cadillac CT6 Platinum
2022 Chrysler Pacifica Pinnacle

The Tassie Devil(le)

G'day Tony,

Could anything have to do with the Fuel having Ethanol in it?

I have heard bad reports from the use of Ethanol in older vehicles.

Bruce.
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

Bill Ingler #7799

Hi Tony: Do you have an auxiliary electric fuel pump and did you use it? If you used the electric pump and it still did not help then before you say it is something else causing the problem,eliminate any possibility that it could be starvation of fuel by checking for any partial fuel line blockage. I have seen a partial blockage of the line as it comes out of the fuel tank. Any crud from inside the tank can partial block the pick up tube. If everything checks OK in the tank then come up to the short flex line between the fuel line and the engine pump. If you are using a repop flex line then take that flex line off and temporarily connect a rubber 5/16 line. Some of those repop flex lines are put together where the brass connections cut the opening for fuel to only 1/8 inch and crud can partially plug that line. You probably have a Stromberg on your 41. Unscrew the brass fuel line fitting on the back of the carb and inside you should have a small brass fuel filter. You say your line filter looked skunky. Has the inside of your tank every been sloshed with a sealant? Some sealant will not take ethanol as Bruce has point out. I know of two cars here in Phoenix, one of which was my 41 that the sealant let loose and gave similar problems to what you are experiencing.   Bill

Steve Passmore

I have had this problem too Bill. A tank I "sloshed" 20 years ago gave up after 10 years only to stop the fuel supply every few miles as the strands of rubbery stuff would go up the pickup tube and bung up at the first union. After sorting this tank out I now always fit a filter in the tank. I use the same filters you can buy for gravity paint spray guns, they are a nice tight fit on the end of the pickup tube and are built for being submerged in thinners all their life. After 10 years its still good.

Tony, one way to find out if this is the problem is to somehow blow down the fuel line back into the tank, this would momentarily clear the blockage and you would know if this was the trouble.#
Steve
Steve

Present
1937 60 convertible coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe
1941 62 coupe

Previous
1936 70 Sport coupe
1937 85 series V12 sedan
1938 60 coupe
1938 50 coupe
1939 60S
1940 62 coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe x2
1941 61 coupe
1941 61 sedan x2
1941 62 sedan x2
1947 62 sedan
1959 62 coupe

TonyZappone #2624

I neglected to mention that prior to the trip I replaced the funky old flexible fuel line with a new one made of neoprene that I made up with good large fittings.  The ethanol could be an issue, but why does it show up after a long hard drive?  A couple old timers thought perhaps the coil could be failing at higher temperatures.  What is the thinking about this?  Keep in mind:  this car toured with our local AACA club last summer to Maine, over 2000 miles, there never was a sniff of any of this nonsense.
Tony Zappone, #2624
1936 Pierce-Arrow conv sed
1947 Cadillac Conv cpe
1958 Cadillac conv
2016 Cadillac CT6 Platinum
2022 Chrysler Pacifica Pinnacle

Otto Skorzeny

As usual, I think you are going to have to start with the basics. Spark and fuel. Test the spark at the coil and at each plug individually.

Perform the fuel pump test as specified in the manual. If yours has been in the car for more than a few years it may have the old type rubber diaphragm that ethanol loves so much. If it pumps less than the required amount in the specified time, the diaphragm is stretched.

fward

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Brett Baird

Tony,

I have noticed the following with my own '41 60S:  On days of 90 degrees or hotter it is prone to vapor lock.  It has never vapor locked on at highway speeds (I drove it 475 miles to the GN in Vegas with 100+ degree temps without a hitch), it only happens after a "hot soak" or during lots of slow & go or stop & go when underhood temps apparently skyrocket. 

I have "allowed" the car to vapor lock in an attempt to isolate the problem, and it actually seems to be percolation at the carburetor rather than the fuel pump, as the glass pump bowl was full of fuel, but removing the brass plug on the side of the Stromberg that allows you to sight the float level revealed an empty or nearly empty carb. 

I have owned this car since 1971 and it was driven by my father for decades before that and there was never a problem in those days with vapor lock.  I therefore agree with those who blame it on today's fuel.  I do have an auxiliary electric pump which I turn on when symtoms occur, and it resolves the problem.
B Baird
17764
'41 Fleetwood 60 S  http://bit.ly/1jwgEWm
'59 Sedan DeVille 6339 "Flat-top"  http://bit.ly/1jwgUF1

Whit Otis, 1188

I recently rode with a friend of my in his '49 60S on a tour to Crested Butte, CO.  This guy's car is always in tip top shape, but going over Monarch pass we got stuck behind a big semi hauling asphalt.  The car started bucking and acting like vapor lock.... we all thought going over the pass at slow speed may have heated things up under the hood, plus the big semi may have reduced air flow to our car. 
Anyway, once we passed the truck and got up to speed, it went away.  Had the same thing happen the next day on tour to the Black Canyon.  This time bucking and jerking, then a loud backfire, so now we're thinking there are two problems.  Pulled over, looked things over, started the car back up and drove back with only minor occasional bucking.... vapor lock????  Turns out the wire from the coil to the side of the distributor was loose.  As my friend John Washburn says, 90% of all fuel problems turn out to be electrical....
Whit
Whit Otis -
1941 6219D Custom
1941 6219D
1940 7533F
1986 Mercedes Benz 560 SEL
1999 Bentley Arnage
2019 XT5
Drawing of AP Sloan Custom by Terry Wenger

TonyZappone #2624

Thank you for all of your helpful suggestions.  I too believe that most fuel problems turn out to be electrical.  Hopefully the man that has my car (where it broke down, 140 miles from here) will find the problem.
Tony Zappone, #2624
1936 Pierce-Arrow conv sed
1947 Cadillac Conv cpe
1958 Cadillac conv
2016 Cadillac CT6 Platinum
2022 Chrysler Pacifica Pinnacle