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1961 Cadillac Hesitation Blues

Started by Jack Miller CLC# 24441, September 26, 2009, 11:05:06 AM

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Jack Miller CLC# 24441

I had my carb rebuilt a while back, but I have used it little. No matter what I do, or how I try to adjust it I still am getting a hesitation from a complete stop. If the car is moving or rolling and I hit the gas pedal, no problem. From a dead stop I have to pump and play with the gas pedal to get the car rolling then it's fine. This is hot or cold.
I am debating if the re-builder used a faulty accelerator pump.

Thanks
Jack

Dave Shepherd

If it is an AFB there are 3 holes for the link on the pump arm, set it in the hole that will give the pump the longest stroke, but normally I would have the carb apart for inspection if the timing is ok.

Art Woody


Dan LeBlanc

I had exactly the same problem in my 1962 when I tried to set the timing to the factory setting.  Set it to about 7.5 degrees advance, never a problem since.
Dan LeBlanc
1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car

35-709

Easy enough to check the accelerator pump which is my suspect for what is at fault, timing would be choice number 2 but the accelerator pump check is easier to do so do it first.  Remove the air cleaner, hold the choke "door" open if necessary with a screwdriver or similar special carb. tool (aka your finger), then pump the accelerator linkage once or twice there at the carb whilst looking inside the front of the carb where the choke door is.  You should see 2 good streams of fuel squirting down into the carb throat, if you don't or if you see just a dribble of fuel you have found at least one source of your problem.  Sometimes the "squirters" get some dirt in the passage to them and only one will work, so consider that possibility also.  One way or the other, if you are not getting 2 good streams of fuel the top of the carb has to come off and you might as well replace the acc. pump even if a dirty passage is the only problem.  The accelerator pump seal could be dried out and suffering from lack of use, it isn't necessarily a "faulty pump".

No matter what you find it won't hurt to check the timing also and adjust as previously suggested.  By the way, make sure the DWELL is set correctly before making any timing changes!
Geoff N.   
1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

Alan Harris CLC#1513

Make sure every ignition part is 100% before messing with the carb. I had a 1966 Impala with the same problem. I was so sure it was the carb that I even bought a new kit for it.

When I replaced the points and plugs, the problem went away. The points were not burned, but they did have alot of wear on them. Good Luck.

Jack Miller CLC# 24441

#6
Quote from: Dan LeBlanc on September 26, 2009, 12:15:48 PM
I had exactly the same problem in my 1962 when I tried to set the timing to the factory setting.  Set it to about 7.5 degrees advance, never a problem since.
I have a Pertronix setup and a pertronix high volt coil. I had this problem when it had points and when the carb just got back from the rebuilder. Before I had the carb rebuilt the engine didn't run so I have nothing to guide it by. It idles great and rides the open road like a quiet Cadillac.
The timing is set to the service manual, 5 degrees ahead of TDC, with vacuum line off and plugged. New Plugs & wires too.

Thanks
Jack

Misfit

Base timing should be 5o BEFORE TDC. Not after.

My 59 has a 61 engine with an AFB on it, with the Pertronix unit. Set your Base timing at 10o BTDC at a 650RPM unloaded idle. Balance the carb unloaded, then set the idle speed to where you feel comfortable.

Mine is at 850 in park with A/C off. It sits at 550, A/C on, in drive.

The boys are steering you right. Timing is everything. Everyone want to blame the carb, when the ignition system is the major culprit.

MisFit

Jack Miller CLC# 24441

Quote from: John Serio #22631 on September 26, 2009, 05:53:31 PM
Base timing should be 5o BEFORE TDC. Not after.

My 59 has a 61 engine with an AFB on it, with the Pertronix unit. Set your Base timing at 10o BTDC at a 650RPM unloaded idle. Balance the carb unloaded, then set the idle speed to where you feel comfortable.

Mine is at 850 in park with A/C off. It sits at 550, A/C on, in drive.

The boys are steering you right. Timing is everything. Everyone want to blame the carb, when the ignition system is the major culprit.

MisFit

Mine sits at 550 with the brake on in drive and 650 in neutral.
I will try the 10 degree.

Thanks
jack

Jack Miller CLC# 24441

Quote from: John Serio #22631 on September 26, 2009, 05:53:31 PM
Base timing should be 5o BEFORE TDC. Not after.

My 59 has a 61 engine with an AFB on it, with the Pertronix unit. Set your Base timing at 10o BTDC at a 650RPM unloaded idle. Balance the carb unloaded, then set the idle speed to where you feel comfortable.

Mine is at 850 in park with A/C off. It sits at 550, A/C on, in drive.

The boys are steering you right. Timing is everything. Everyone want to blame the carb, when the ignition system is the major culprit.

MisFit

Please look at 1961 Cadillac service Manual page 12-15 Chapter 22 -6 it says that the 5 degree mark is ahead of TDC. Fig 12-20

Jack

The Tassie Devil(le)

Quote from: Jack Miller CLC# 24441 on September 29, 2009, 12:41:01 AM
Please look at 1961 Cadillac service Manual page 12-15 Chapter 22 -6 it says that the 5 degree mark is ahead of TDC. Fig 12-20 Jack 
That means Before Top Dead Centre, and not After Top Dead Centre, or 5 Degrees Advanced, not 5 Degrees Retarded.

Bruce.
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

Jack Miller CLC# 24441

Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) (Bruce Reynolds) on September 29, 2009, 06:23:10 AM
That means Before Top Dead Centre, and not After Top Dead Centre, or 5 Degrees Advanced, not 5 Degrees Retarded.

Bruce.

I thought that when the manual said ahead of, it was in front of and not before.
Confusing.


Jack

Art Woody

If'n timing is retarded 10 degrees, you will take off like a scared haint once you advance 10 degrees, and maybe a little more. As long as it doesn't ping.

Jack Miller CLC# 24441

OK,

There are only 3 markings on my crank. 0, 5, 10. I had it at 5. The manual shows in the picture that I had it set correctly at 5. You guys said to move it to 10. I will do that and let you know how that goes.

Jack

Jack Miller CLC# 24441

#14
Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) (Bruce Reynolds) on September 29, 2009, 06:23:10 AM
That means Before Top Dead Centre, and not After Top Dead Centre, or 5 Degrees Advanced, not 5 Degrees Retarded.

Bruce.

Bruce,

There are only one set of markings on this damper. As I put in my last post. 0-5-10 after the 0 as the pulley is turning, with me facing the motor  running clockwise. The factory manual says to use the 5 on that pg 12-15, fig 12-20.  I will try 10 and see how it runs.

Jack

Jack Miller CLC# 24441

OK,

I moved the timing to the 10 degree mark. When the motor warmed up it started shaking and idling faster than it should. I got 3 blocks and I had to keep on putting it into neutral as it wanted to stall out in drive. When I stopped at my house to get it into the garage, it stalled out in drive but started right up. It seemed to not hesitate when I stopped in neutral and then put it into Drive and started to drive, but the engine shaking is not cool. I am short on time today, so I will have to finish up tomorrow. I have to get this all done by next Wednesday as I am going in for my 4th right shoulder AC joint and labrium rebuild surgery on Thursday. I will be in recovery for at least 8 weeks and 6 months or more to heal.  I have had a lot of bone loss and cadaver parts put in and every operation healing takes longer. Then we have winter so.........if not done by Wed. I can't drive her over the winter.  :(

Thanks
Jack

Otto Skorzeny

be sure to follow all the usual rules when timing your car like disconnecting the vac advance, etc. You'll probably have to re-adjust your carb idle speed.

Finesse the timing starting at 10* BTDC and working down from there. Maybe 8 or 9 will work for you.
fward

Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for YOURSELF

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Dan LeBlanc

My 61 is set just between the 5 and 10 degree marks and runs great.  If I go to the 5 or 10 not so great - pinging at 5 degrees and hesitating at 10 degrees.  It might be a bit of trial and error.  And, don't forget to check the dwell.  If you don't have a dwell meter, the alternative method in the shop manual works pretty good.  Dwell and timing are paramount to getting your car to run as smooth as a Cadillac should.

If I lived closer, I'd come and help.
Dan LeBlanc
1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car

Jack Miller CLC# 24441

Quote from: Dan LeBlanc on September 30, 2009, 06:44:17 PM
My 61 is set just between the 5 and 10 degree marks and runs great.  If I go to the 5 or 10 not so great - pinging at 5 degrees and hesitating at 10 degrees.  It might be a bit of trial and error.  And, don't forget to check the dwell.  If you don't have a dwell meter, the alternative method in the shop manual works pretty good.  Dwell and timing are paramount to getting your car to run as smooth as a Cadillac should.

If I lived closer, I'd come and help.

I have been setting up cars for a long time but I never had a problem like I do with this 61.
The dwell is correct and it was idling great before I changed the timing today but I had that hesitation.
I will play inbetween 5-10 tomorow.

Thanks
Jack

Jack Miller CLC# 24441

I brought it to about 7 degrees and the hesitation went away, thanks for the tip. I guess that you can't always go by the factory manual.
After I set that my water pump started leaking (I had it rebuilt in 07) and a bolt that holds my heat valve to the exhaust manifold snapped.
It looks like a spring project to finish this up.

Thanks
Jack