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57 Coupe Deville inlet manifold issue

Started by Kurt Wrebel, October 27, 2009, 10:50:29 AM

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Kurt Wrebel

Hi guys, got a problem and need some help. I've got the inlet manifold off my 1957 Coupe Deville at the moment for cleaning and painting prior to sitting the restored carburetor on it - when I get it back from the US. The manifold needed a really good clean up and there was evidence on its facings off leakage, and a little corrosion has needed cleaning up on the faces too. All's gone well, but my buddy recommends not using a new steel shim gasket but t using instead a soft material or 'composite' gasket to take up any unevenness, otherwise it's destined to leak again.
What he says seems to make a great deal of sense, but I'm wondering what other members have done on encountering this scenario. Also, so far I haven't been able to locate anything other than steel shim gaskets in the UK; does anyone know a supplier in the US? that is if I need one....Kurt

Dave Shepherd

If you can get a composite gasket I would use it, your buddy is on track here.

Kurt Wrebel

Thanks for posting your opinion, Dave.  The options at present seem to be use a steel shim gasket only if I get the maniflold faces skimmed, otherwise use only a composite one. Getting the manifold skimmed doesn't seem to be a favorite though, and although I'm no engineer, my instincts tell me that's not the way to go.
The problem is,when all the UK suppliers only list steel shims, actualy getting a composite gasket. I could always buy the appropriate material and make my own I suppose.

Roger Zimmermann

Best Gasket in the US is making what you need. I bought some by Terrill Machine in Texas. I'm sure other US engine parts suppliers have them too. What you found in the UK are probably made by Fell Pro.
If your intake manifold is slightly warped, composite gaskets will not do it. I discovered it on my own '56 Biarritz, thinking it was vapor lock.
Roger
Switzerland
1956 Sedan de Ville (sold)
1956 Eldorado Biarritz
1957 Eldorado Brougham (sold)
1972 Coupe de Ville
2011 DTS
CLCMRC benefactor #101

Kurt Wrebel


Hi Roger, thanks for your posting. My inlet manifold is in pretty good shape though and no signs of warping, just a bit 'cruddy' on a couple of faces which we cleaned well. And, it's problem over now anyway. I've managed to buy a set of composite gaskets off eBay USA and they should be on the way in a couple of days.
Kurt...


kelly

Just a couple thoughts. How much surface material was removed to clean-up the mating surfaces?  If you still have some surface pits, why not try filling the defects with J.B. Weld or some other durable epoxy product?  I know it may sound radical, but intakes do not get that hot, so it might be worth considering. I've done it on exhaust manifolds with good success.
  If there is an application, and I don't know if there is, a graphite gasket would be a fine choice. When I worked for Jasper Engines, Felpro made a large number of graphite applications that fixed a number of original sins.  They don't burn, they don't shrink, and they allow movement between castings without a loss of seal.  Pretty good stuff.
  As an afterthought, I wish I had taken the time and effort to "gasket match" the contact surfaces of the intake and cylinder heads.  That is, place the gasket on each of those surfaces, mark any area that protrudes into the airflow area with blue machinist's dye. Take a die grinder and remove that material. It's what might be reffered to as a stage 1 flow improvement. Any surface that interferes with the flow of the fuel charge robs power and efficiency. In other words, if it sticks out beyond the sealing ring of the intake gasket, it slows down the delivery of the fuel charge to the cylinder, and robs power from the engine. Takes a little bit of effort, but makes for a more efficient and powerful engine. The same is true on the exhaust side of the castings.
  Good luck on the gasket quest.
Kelly Martin
Kelly Martin
1957 Fleetwood 75
2008 DTS

Kurt Wrebel


Thanks for all the useful tips kelly. I did carry out a couple of minor repairs on the intake manifold with JB Weld - that's is one fantastic product - the repairs withstood the bead-blasting process we used to clean the manifold, with no signs of any wear at all. But I never thought of using JB to repair any of the tiny pits in the mating faces. That's a great idea. I've got composite gaskets on the way, like I said, but the next time I replace them I'll be sure to check into the availability of graphite gaskets.
Before I put this thing back together I'll have a go at the 'gasket match' process you described. It sounds simple enough and well worth the effort; and after all, perfomance improvement is what it's all about, so take that little bit of extra time on it. I've often looked at gaskets in the past and thought ' I wonder if that matters that it's overhanging a bit?' Common sense told me it did, but I've never done anything about it.
Thanks again...Kurt.

 

jim thomas

Quote from: derbydrifter on October 27, 2009, 10:50:29 AM
Hi guys, got a problem and need some help. I've got the inlet manifold off my 1957 Coupe Deville at the moment for cleaning and painting prior to sitting the restored carburetor on it - when I get it back from the US. The manifold needed a really good clean up and there was evidence on its facings off leakage, and a little corrosion has needed cleaning up on the faces too. All's gone well, but my buddy recommends not using a new steel shim gasket but t using instead a soft material or 'composite' gasket to take up any unevenness, otherwise it's destined to leak again.
What he says seems to make a great deal of sense, but I'm wondering what other members have done on encountering this scenario. Also, so far I haven't been able to locate anything other than steel shim gaskets in the UK; does anyone know a supplier in the US? that is if I need one....Kurt

KURT I'M NO expert on the '57'BUT   I think from what  I have read ,You are in for a poor-runing engine if you don't  use the shim   under the carb . JIM

Kurt Wrebel


Hi Jim, I'm getting a lot of conflicting opinions on shims versus composite gaskets. Surely if one one was far better than the other one of them would have been faded out by now, but I now find that both are readily available - probably shims more than composite. I'd be extremely interested and very grateful to hear about the experiences that have brought you to your opinion.
Kurt...


Quote from: jim thomas on October 29, 2009, 11:05:16 PM
KURT I'M NO expert on the '57'BUT   I think from what  I have read ,You are in for a poor-runing engine if you don't  use the shim   under the carb . JIM

Walter Youshock

I've only used the metal FelPro gaskets on the intake to heads, but I always use a gasket sealant and make sure the surfaces are totally clean AND that the bolts are properly torqued to the Shop Manual specs.  Unless your heads are out of alignment or warped, the intake should line up just fine.

One thing, though--the center ports generate A LOT of heat as they feed cylinders 3 and 5 and 4 and 6, so a composite gasket may not hold up.  Also, a thicker gasket could throw off the alignment enough to be a problem.

As for the carb shim--there is a stainless plate that is REQUIRED to be placed directly under the aluminum Carter AFB.  This is to protect the underside of the carb from getting eaten away by return exhaust gasses and keep the bowl cool.  A cast Rochester does not use the shim as the valve body on the Rochester is cast and can handle the extra heat.
CLC #11959 (Life)
1957 Coupe deVille
1991 Brougham

35-709

#10
Quote from: jim thomas on October 29, 2009, 11:05:16 PM
KURT I'M NO expert on the '57'BUT   I think from what  I have read ,You are in for a poor-runing engine if you don't  use the shim   under the carb . JIM

Hi Jim,
I believe the discussion here is about the intake manifold to head(s) gasket, not the carb to manifold gasket(s).  The stainless carb gasket you are referring to is used with a Carter AFB carb, but not with the Rochester.
Geoff N.   

Walter posted above while I was typing my response but here is my response anyway.
1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

Kurt Wrebel


Yes that's right, I am talcking about the intake manifold to cylinder block gasket, not the carb to inlet manifold gasket. Sorry Jim, I didn't notice that discrepancy otherwise I would have explained.  Like Geoff says, there is no stainless shim under the Rochester carb, just a black plastic spacer withe  gaskets either side.

You know... I think because of what Walter said, I'm going to go with steel shims on this. He's right, on my car the area around the central ports on the inlet manifold was slightly pitted and the steel shim gasket had begun to leak at that point. The gasket itself was eaten away a little too - obviously by the intense heat - so a composite gasket wouldn't have stood a chance. Thanks Walter, you've come through again. Kurt




Roger Zimmermann

Quote from: derbydrifter on October 30, 2009, 12:04:12 PM
obviously by the intense heat - so a composite gasket wouldn't have stood a chance.

Kurt, are you sure? The composite material for the manifold gasket may be the same as the one used for the exhaust manifolds. When I removed my intake manifold to cure the warping problem, the composite gaskets were not damaged at the center ports.

Roger
1956 Sedan de Ville (sold)
1956 Eldorado Biarritz
1957 Eldorado Brougham (sold)
1972 Coupe de Ville
2011 DTS
CLCMRC benefactor #101

35-709

"He's right, on my car the area around the central ports on the inlet manifold was slightly pitted and the steel shim gasket had begun to leak at that point. The gasket itself was eaten away a little too - obviously by the intense heat - ...."

I'll harp on an old favorite of mine here.  That pitting/erosion and gasket deterioration is likely caused by a heat riser valve that is stuck closed (or nearly so) and continually forcing hot exhaust through the intake manifold even after the car is warmed up.  It can also lead to a cracked intake manifold.  This is all preventable by making sure that the heat riser is free and working properly on a regular basis, like at every oil change, or more frequently if your car isn't driven much and the oil isn't changed very often.  Or, if the car is not used in cold weather the heat riser can be disabled in the open position or eliminated all together.  Even in cold weather a little longer warm up  before heading out will work if the heat riser is eliminated or kept in the open position.
Geoff N.
1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

Walter Youshock

The stainless steel shim-type gaskets have a raised flange on them and are one piece which fit on locating pins on the heads.  With the raised flange and the gasket cement, compressing them should take care of any leaks.

As for composite exhaust manifold gaskets--they are secured with the 6 bolts and are designed so that they allow some heating and cooling expansion and contraction.  Exhaust is a lot hotter than intake and complete alignment is not as critical on the outlet side as it is on the inlet.
CLC #11959 (Life)
1957 Coupe deVille
1991 Brougham

Kurt Wrebel

That's interesting, Geoff, and it could be the culprit, but I'm no mechanic and don't know where it is or how to check the heat riser valve.  I guess it'll be in my workshop manual.
Kurt...


Kurt Wrebel

No, I'm not absolutely certain Roger, but looking at the composite gasket, its made of a soft black material. From what I remember of exhaust manifold gaskets it doesn't look anywhere near as sturdy or heatproof.
Kurt



35-709

#17
Kurt,
In the '56 manual (I don't have one for '57) it is described as being "at the junction of left exhaust manifold and left exhaust pipe."  Cadillac calls it "a thermostatically controlled heat valve".

You will see it there, it has a counterweight and a coiled spring, when cold the spring holds the valve closed "directing hot exhaust gases through the heat passage under the intake manifold to heat the intake gases to provide optimum performance and economy when the engine is cold".  As the engine warms the bi-metal spring (the "thermostatically controlled" part) opens the valve and lets the exhaust flow out the pipe in normal fashion. Also according to the shop manual, "it will be noted that exhaust gases are emitted only through the right exhaust outlet in the rear bumper during the warm-up period." 
Because of the heat and environment this valve works in, it is very common for it to get rusty and stick, often in the closed position.  A valve stuck in the open position poses no real problem and would probably be unnoticed by most.  Actually a valve stuck closed also goes mostly unnoticed too until intake manifold leaks and cracks start to appear because of the valve staying closed at all times instead of opening as it should as the engine warms.  Stuck valves can usually be freed up with a liberal dose of PB Blaster and patience working it back and forth.  Mike Josephic says Lock-Ease has also works well.  I just disconnect the spring and wire or block the valve open all the time.

Someone else can confirm if the valve is on the driver side or the passenger side on the '57 --- if you don't see it on the left, look for it on the right  ;D  They were put on either side depending on the year.
Geoff N.

     
1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

Kurt Wrebel


Geoff,
Thanks for your valuable posting. My car is an import from Kansas to the UK and is believed to have been standing for some time over there. Therefore the chances of this heat valve being jammed either open or shut are very likely. Thanks to your posting I understand it more now and know what I'm looking for and can get to work.
Thanks again, and I'll let you know how I get on.
Kurt


David King (kz78hy)

Kurt

57's have it on the Left side.

David
David King
CLC 22014  (life)
1958 Eldorado Brougham 615
1959 Eldorado Brougham 56- sold
1960 Eldorado Brougham 83- sold
1998 Deville d'Elegance
1955 Eldorado #277
1964 Studebaker Commander
2012 Volt
CLCMRC benefactor 197

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