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Taking engine apart from transmission

Started by LM 25575, November 05, 2009, 04:12:21 PM

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LM 25575

Hi, tomorrow my '49 will have engine taken apart from body. Any good tips about separate it from Hydramatic Transmission? Thanks!
L. Marzana
- 1949 Cadillac 62 4 door
- 1981 HD FLTC

vicbrincat

I would advise separating the transmission and engine  in the car. Make sure you support the front end of the tranny using a good hydraulic jack.  I usually  bolt a flat piece of 2 x 10" plank of wood about 1.5 foot long right to the lift end of the jack. This equalizes the weight and does not damage the tranny oil pan when lifting. Recess the mounting  bolt into the wood to avoid scaring the pan.

There will be a gush of trans fluid  when you separate the fly wheel from the fluid coupling ..so be prepared.

The tranny is mach easier to remove once the engine is out.

Don't forget to unhook the drive shaft and undo the tranny mounting bolts from the center frame before you start.


Installing the unit back in is a different story. I would advise coupling the tranny and the engine BEFORE installing it into the car. I assume you have the rad and rad cradle out of the car for that job. Removing the rad cradle will also make taking the engine out easier. Installing and coupling back together is a little trickier as you need to make sure you use a new gasket and that you torque the many, many coupling bolts correctly. AND you need to use a sealer like LOCK-TIGHT  on each tranny fluid coupling bolt or it will leak like a sieve....I speak from experience.


Good luck.







John Morris #23947

There is a drain plug on the torus cover. No need for the big mess.
71 Olds 98 LS, 66 Fairlane 500 XL Convertible, 55 Packard Clipper Super, 58 Edsel Ranger, 72 Cheyenne Super, many 49-60 parts cars, abandoned "House Of Doom" full of 49-60 parts. Huge piles of engine parts, brackets, tin, Hydramatic & Jetaway parts,  thousands of stainless moldings, dozens of perfect sedan doors.

The Tassie Devil(le)

Isn't there a Crankshaft Flange that bolts to the Torus Cover?

Shouldn't have to split the Torus to get it off the Crankshaft.

Bruce >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

LM 25575

Engine and gearbox are still on the car. What we are going to do is taking just the engine apart from gearbox.
L. Marzana
- 1949 Cadillac 62 4 door
- 1981 HD FLTC

The Tassie Devil(le)

Yes, I understand that.

You don't have to dismantle the Transmission Fluid Drive to separate it from the Engine.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

LM 25575

Yes, that's correct. But I was wondering if, besides taking the bolts away and pulling the engine, there is something else to take care of or if basically would work like for any other kind of engine/transmission. I gave a look to the workshop manual but didn't find any particular suggestions.
L. Marzana
- 1949 Cadillac 62 4 door
- 1981 HD FLTC

vicbrincat

Folks,

Cadillac automatic transmissions used on the 346 flathead AND the 331 OHV used a transmission that had a fluid coupling to the flywheel.
There was no "torous". These transmission were not the same set up as the ones used in the 365, 390s and up.
The older Hydramatics  require you to remove the fluid coupling bolts in order to separate the transmission from the engine. The fly wheel will stay with the engine NOT the transmission.

The only way the fly wheel can be removed is AFTER the tranny is separated.

Do not attempt to remove the engine without undoing the fluid couple.  You will damage the transmission.

Vic



LM 25575

Thanks Vic, just to be sure, where are the fluid coupling bolts? Got a picture of it? I have the Hydra manual but could not find. Thanks.
L. Marzana
- 1949 Cadillac 62 4 door
- 1981 HD FLTC

vicbrincat

I wish I did have a picture. I wish I could take one for you...but my engine is out of the car right now.

Here is what I did....

First, remove the drive shaft. Next, remove the hydramatic front cover....I believe it's 4 or 6 small bolts.  This will  partially expose the fluid coupling . You will need to work through this "window" to remove the coupling bolts.
Next, rotate the engine such that the fluid coupling drain is visible in the window. Drain the coupling by removing this plug. You will not get ALL  the  fluid out this way...you will still get a lot fluid gush when you separate .
Now you can start the process of removing the coupling to flywheel bolts. Rotate the engine to get to the next group of bolts.  There are many of them...I lost count. Be careful not to lose any!

You should already be supporting the pan of the tranny at this point. You  will also need to balance the engine via an engine lift hoist  because the engine depends on the transmission as it's third support point. Once the engine is being supported by the hoist and the transmission via a jack, remove the bell housing bolts. Unbolt the transmission rear mount.
Now you can move the whole tranny back  to separate it and to pull the main drive spline out of the crank at the same time. Make sure  you move the  tranny back enough to clear the bell housing of the engine so you don't damage anything when pulling the engine. Now you can lift the engine up and forward. Transmission will stay supported by the jack. You will need to keep the jack there if you want to leave the tranny in the car.

Hope this has helped. Feel free to contact me directly at vicbrincat@yahoo.com if you need further assistance.

Vic




The Tassie Devil(le)

Thanks for the education Vic,

No wonder I don't work on older cars.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

Doug Houston

I hate to weigh in at this point. The above has been most confusing, and in my mind, very misleading. It's almost like the blind leading the blind.

First, breaking the transmission and engine apart while in the chassis is an act of monumental futility. I've had a few of these engines and Hydra-Matics out over the years, and I'd never think of doing some of the exercises mentioned above.

If it's at all possible, get the whole engine and transmission out of the car intact. If you break them apart before removal, you'll be propping the engine up before lifting it, and then, working the transmission  out from under the chassis. You'd need a transmission jack, among other things.

I assume that you're taking the whole power pack out of the chassis. (Engine and transmission together). If so, here's the easiest way to do it.

Drain the transmission first. Good idea to drain the crankcase as well. You'll be spilling oil anyway, but at least you'll be minimizing it. have the rear engine mount out, and the cross member removed. You'll need a floor jack under the transmission tail housing, to control its position. (The drive shaft has been disconnected before all this, of course).

Unbolt and disconnect everything from the engine. It's OK to leave the transmission linkages on, if you want to. Get the car high enough from the floor so that the tail end of the transmission will clear it.  Get the radiator and all of the things off, that will be in the way.

Raise the engine out, with the trans. rear end, poking downward, have someone keep the tail housing of the trans. from hanging on the cowl.  Bring the whole thing forward and upward, then away from the car.   You can put the engine in a stand, or however you'll want to handle it. The lower flywheel pan shoud be off, for access to the flywheel bolts. Do not unbolt the bell housing from the block yet.

Remove the thirty cap screws that bolt the torus cover to the flywheel, then gently break the cover from the flywheel.It will separate only 3/8" or so.

Have the transmission cradled in some support at this point. Disconnect the control levers from the transmission.

Then, remove the large capscrews that hold the bell housing to the block, making sure that the transmission is cradled in a stable condition. Pry the bell housing loose from the engine, and the transmission is now uncoupled.

All of this applies to the pre-1956 Hydra-Matic transmissions.






38-6019S
38-9039
39-9057B
41-6227D
41-6019SF
41-6229D
41-6267D
56-6267
70-DeV Conv
41-Chev 41-1167
41 Olds 41-3929

vicbrincat

#12
Doug,

actually the shop manual recommends removing the engine separately from the transmission. (Granted mine is a '48  and Luca is working on a '49). That may be the difference. ...regardless I did my '53 the same way.

From the '48 manual, Page  81:

Removal of Engine in Car. Step 6:

"NOTE: The Hydramatic Transmission on cars so equipped must be removed  as explained in section 13, note 9."


This note (on page 131) then explains how to remove the hydramatic separately from the engine..

Here are some pics of my engine being removed. I did have the entire front end of my car apart....and could have taken the engine and tranny out together, But I opted to follow the manual.

http://www.eldobrghm.com/48Cadillac/images/2007_12_27/XTi_20071227_999_31.jpg
http://www.eldobrghm.com/48Cadillac/images/2007_12_27/XTi_20071227_999_30.jpg

It is possible to remove and install the engine and transmission together. But you will need to take out the grill, rad and rad cradle to get enough room to clear the transmission from the firewall.

Vic



Doug Houston

What  I've said above is the way I have done it several times on my own cars (1941).  If you have the tools and equipment that a dealer has, then, go by the book.

Whatever I recommend, somebody will always come up with a different idea (which of course, is  better).

So, however you want to do the operation, go to it.
38-6019S
38-9039
39-9057B
41-6227D
41-6019SF
41-6229D
41-6267D
56-6267
70-DeV Conv
41-Chev 41-1167
41 Olds 41-3929

Pat

LM,
Pulling the engine with the transmission on a car that has the radiator brace in place is a P.I.T.A. That is a lot of weight high off the ground. If you can get the snout of the engine lift down low in the lifter valley you can pull the engine without taking the hood off. If you plan on removing or installing the engine/trans together it will be much safer to do so without the rad brace in the way.
H.T.H.
Cheers,Pat

LM 25575

Thanks to all of you! Reading even different opinions is always very interesting anyway.

Ciao
L. Marzana
- 1949 Cadillac 62 4 door
- 1981 HD FLTC

LM 25575

Now the car has just the hydra-matic trans left on her. A question, canthe car be towed or the transmission would be damaged?
L. Marzana
- 1949 Cadillac 62 4 door
- 1981 HD FLTC