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Should I convert my Air Conditioner to 134a or use Freeze 12 ?

Started by joecaristo, November 10, 2009, 10:59:04 PM

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joecaristo

Should I convert my Air Conditioner to 134a or use Freeze 12 ? "They" say if you use Freeze 12 you won't have to use any different fittings. What are the pros and cons?I like the idea of keeping it looking stock. Any thoughts? Thanks, Joe    joecaristo@verizon.net
Joe Caristo

Dan LeBlanc

I had a 1963 date coded aftermarket a/c system in my 1962.  I tried Freeze 12, it worked until it all leaked out (I didn't use thread sealer on the fittings).  Once I pulled it all apart again and put the thread sealer (the liquid kind, not the teflon tape variety), I charged it with Duracool.  It worked great (would form frost on the vents) and lasted until I sold the car two years later (no top-ups needed).   Didn't need to upgrade to barrier style hoses.  All I had to do was use the low side adapter to charge the system.  When I was done, I took it off and put the original cap back.  Nobody was the wiser.
Dan LeBlanc
1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car

76eldo

Joe,

My mechanic uses Freeze-12 with good results.  It's certainly worth a try.

Brian
Brian Rachlin
Huntingdon Valley, Pa
I prefer email's not PM's rachlin@comcast.net

1960 62 Series Conv with Factory Tri Power
1970 DeVille Conv
1970 Eldo
1970 Caribu (?) "The Cadmino"
1973 Eldorado Conv Pace Car
1976 Eldorado Conv
1980 Eldorado H & E Conv
1993 Allante with Hardtop (X2)
2008 DTS
2012 CTS Coupe
2017 XT
1956 Thunderbird
1966 Olds Toronado

bill henry

R12 is readily availible to anyone with a license and I would rather pay a little more for the right stuff.
Bill Henry

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Gentlemen,
Any and all "replacement" Refrigerants have drawbacks.  ALL components and system operation in our Cadillacs with Automatic Temperature Control (ATC) depend upon the refrigeration system performing exactly as the original engineers designed it.  When they designed it they used components, specifically designed and proven to operate with R-12.  When you change that refrigerant, you change some of the operating characteristics of the refrigeration system, and the "envelope" of performance is modified.
There are two analogies that I might use, and the first would be to use E-15 in place of gasoline for a 60's- through 70's Cadillac.  It will work, but there are drawbacks to longevity and performance.
The second would be the most severe, and would be if a transfusion was made with "tainted" blood.  It would work for a while, but there would be serious consequences.
All that said, R-12 is still available through legal channels, and results in like new performance.  There is another refrigerant that I am currently using successfully in a couple of my cars and that is R-414b.  Again, you need to be licenced, but this refrigerant is fully certified and manufactured by IKOR, an established Manufacturer as an direct replacement for R-12 in commercial refrigeration and automotive AC systems.
There have been no long term studies as to the toxicity, flammability, corrosive or erosive activities of the "non certified" replacements you can get without a licence, and I have heard many horror stories of the results of their use.
The most popular "hype" the promoters seem to use is "the Government doesn't want to give us a certification because...... (you fill in the blank).\
R-12 seels for $28.00 per 14 OZ can, R-414b costs about $8.00 per pound, and if the hoses and o-rings are repaired and replaced as necessary to make them as leak tight as new, just starting and using your AC once a month should ensure that the original charge will last for years.
Remember how much it costs today to fill your gas tank?
Hope this can help.
Greg
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

RobW

Freeze 12 is an azeotropic mixture. That means its a refrigerant made up of two different chemicals that do not mix. In this case the its 20% 142b and 80% R-134a. It cools better in R12 systems because the blend brings the pressure curve of R 134a closer to R12. The drawback is if you have a slow leak over time the mixture doesn't leak evenly. So you'd need to evacuate and recharge rather than topping off.
Also any replacement refrigerant requires new labels be placed on the system along with special fittings.
Here's some further info..
http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrigerants/refblend.html
Rob Wirsing

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

The issue is typically not the pressure curve, but the volumetric rate of the refrigerant and the amount of work per pound of refrigerant necessary for the compressor to "pump" that volume.  Typically replacements that I have looked at, other than R-414b result in a (suction pressure to discharge pressure) compression ratio that is about 10% higher than with R-12.  Efficiency of a refrigeration compressor falls off as the compression ratio goes up, in in the case of a 10% increase in CR, the result is a 17-20% decrease in efficiency, or the ability to pump refrigerant.
Greg
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

Mike Josephic CLC #3877

Greg:

Makes sense to me.  That's why I agree with previous posters who recommend to
stay with the R-12 for which these systems were designed.

There is plenty of R-12 still available.  Before the ban on production was started, the
producers stockpiled millions of pounds of the stuff.  This was partly at the request of the
U.S. government, who needed time to retrofit all of their equipment.

It's easily purchased on E-Bay and other outlets.  You do have to sign a statement (in lieu
of a license) about your intended use if you wish to purchase but that's no big deal.

Mike
1955 Cadillac Eldorado
1973 Cadillac Eldorado
1995 Cadillac Seville
2004 Escalade
1997 GMC Suburban 4X4, 454 engine, 3/4 ton
custom built by Santa Fe in Evansville, IN
2011 Buick Lucerne CX
-------------------------------------
CLCMRC Museum Benefactor #38
Past: VP International Affiliates, Museum Board Director, President / Director Pittsburgh Region

Ted in Olympia WA

I converted a 1978 to R134 and it worked great.  With the price difference I would sure convert it to R134.  Also from this point on you can do your own charge if you need to.

TED
Selling used Eldorado Parts from 1971-1978.  Member Number 25659.

eam32

I converted my three cars to 134a and they all work perfectly:  76 Cadillac, 1989 Chev Caprice and a 1990 Pontiac Bonniville and the cool air is quite cool.  EAM

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

It never ceases to amaze me that we will spend $200.00 for a "piece of nothing" for our cars, and then look for bargains where the actual functional operation is concerned.  Yes, R-134a WILL work in a system designed for R-12 if the "conversion" is done correctly. Yes, there will be a decrease in efficiency and performance resulting in a 20% loss of capacity. Does it mater?  That depends upon two things. 1. Where are you going to operate your car and when. 2. Do you want to maintain factory performance?
The AC systems for our cars were designed as a unit that would meet comfort conditions of heating, cooling and de humidification in essentially all parts of the world. They worked well in Minnesota winters and Arizona Summers.  They started out with a wide margin of extra capacity for the majority of the climatic conditions they were anticipated to encounter.
Guarantee you that the Summers in Olympia Washington where the design conditions are 87 degrees, 37% relative humidity can be just a bit less taxing on an AC system than Phoenix with a design temperature of 110 degrees, or Dallas Texas with 100 degree, 70% Relative humidity out door conditions.
There is no one size fits all answer to wether using R-134a will work to meet your expectations for comfort.  I did try using it on my 76 Coupe deVille, and for most of the year in San Antonio it worked well.  Come summer and a little traffic with that extra 20% of capacity missing, it did not take long for me to re-convert to R-12.
I did a piece for the "Self Starter a while back in which I described my attempt (successful mechanically) to modify an A-6 compressor to perform with R-134a.  The short version is that the cost of the modifications was prohibitive for  practical purposes. You can buy a lot of R-12 for what it cost, not counting any labor.
I hope I have explained the logic behind my reluctance to use R-134a ( it works excellently in systems designed expressly for it), or some of the other replacements on the market.
Greg
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

TJ Hopland

What I remember about 12 to 134 conversions and even early 134 factory systems is they were not bad cruising but the second you got in any sort of traffic in even moderate temps is when they fell apart.  Must have been the lower compressor speed and lower airflow through the condenser.  I assume the corrected that by changing the compressor and size of the condenser.  Again something that would likely be impractical cost wise on many cars. I imagine for some peoples driving conditions and climates it may not a big deal.
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

76eldo

I agree with the reasoning to stay with R-12, but only after making sure that the system is as tight as possible.

It's a lot of trouble to go through to get R-12 and get it put in professionally if it will leak out in a couple of months.

My 76 Eldo has 134 in it and it works fine.  My 93 Allante still has the factory shot of R-12, and on that car, you can get a lot of error messages on the computer if you use 134, so that car will always have R-12 in it as needed.

I don't care what anyone says, the R-12 is much colder (sometimes too cold in a small car like an Allante) than the 134.

Brian
Brian Rachlin
Huntingdon Valley, Pa
I prefer email's not PM's rachlin@comcast.net

1960 62 Series Conv with Factory Tri Power
1970 DeVille Conv
1970 Eldo
1970 Caribu (?) "The Cadmino"
1973 Eldorado Conv Pace Car
1976 Eldorado Conv
1980 Eldorado H & E Conv
1993 Allante with Hardtop (X2)
2008 DTS
2012 CTS Coupe
2017 XT
1956 Thunderbird
1966 Olds Toronado

Ted in Olympia WA

I agree that in Olympia WA we run the AC more in the winter for defrost than we do in the Summer for cooling.  So I agree with your conclusion that R12 may be better in very hot areas.  In Olympia most of the time we just say oh well when it quits working and sometimes even take it off to save weight.

If you even recharged with R12 and had a leak in the hose you know that it is much colder than R134.  You really have to be careful with R12.

I'm still mad at the Govenment for making R12 illegal (or at least expensive and hard to get) and for Dupont (or the public) for not fighting it more.  I hear there is also talk about R134 is not safe and may be made harder to get in the future.

TED
Selling used Eldorado Parts from 1971-1978.  Member Number 25659.

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Ted,
Now that you mentioned it the EU (European Union) has legislated the elimination of R-134a from new vehicle production, starting, I believe in 2011.  This they say due to the "Global Warming Potential" of the refrigerant, it's manufacture, it's release and the power consumed in it's operation.
The most likely replacement is going to be  "Hydroflouro-olefin , a Fluorinated Propene Isomer known as "R-1234yf".  How is that for a mouthful.  Seriously, that is what is coming.  DuPont and Honeywell are slated to product this new Refrigerant, and the "estimated" cost will be from $40.00 to $65.00 per pound.
Greg
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

STDog

Quote from: "Cadillac Kid"  Greg Surfas 15364 on November 12, 2009, 12:52:14 PM
The most likely replacement is going to be  "Hydroflouro-olefin , a Fluorinated Propene Isomer known as "R-1234yf".

Interesting. I suspect there will be problems with them too. The fluorine is going to be a problem just as CFCs and HCFCs.

I'd rather see the vehicle manufactures develop HC systems (propane/butane based like Duracool mentioned above) to get EPA and NHTSA approval.

Quote from: "Cadillac Kid"  Greg Surfas 15364 on November 11, 2009, 09:55:46 AM
There have been no long term studies as to the toxicity, flammability, corrosive or erosive activities of the "non certified" replacements you can get without a licence, and I have heard many horror stories of the results of their use.

I'd love for you to send me information related to those stories.

Glen

Many years ago I read in a magazine like Popular Mechanics or Mechanix Illustrated.about a guy that invented an A/C that did not use any refrigerant.  It compressed the air ran it through a radiator to cool it and then released it in the passenger compartment.  The writer from the magazine said it cooled the car down faster than a conventional A/C. 

I wonder what ever happened to that. 

Glen
Glen Houlton CLC #727 
CLCMRC benefactor #104

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Thomas, What you would rather see which might make sense has no relevance on what the Agencies controlling these issues will do.  The flourene in R-1234yf "says" it is different than that in R-12, so the legislators  have given it the ok.
Glen, the other refrigerant the EU is proposing is CO-2. It would be a compound system with system pressures over 5000psi, and apparently all the required components currently patented by a German company.  The R-1234yf is intended as a (here it is again) "drop in" for R-134a.
All this has little if nothing to do with our cars.  R-12 is the best for systems designed for it and it is still available.
Who knows what might be down the road?
Greg
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

The Tassie Devil(le)

Quote from: "Cadillac Kid"  Greg Surfas 15364 on November 18, 2009, 07:36:09 PM
It would be a compound system with system pressures over 5000psi, and apparently all the required components currently patented by a German company. 
Maybe there are some pretty powerful Lobbyists in Germany?

But, wouldn't 5,000 psi destroy any 134A system?

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe