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Any thoughts on Ziebart undercoating Or another type ?

Started by Bill Balkie 24172, December 13, 2009, 08:33:17 AM

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Bill Balkie 24172

Hello ,
The undercarriage  of my car is dry , clean , and solid , but does have surface rust . The car is 52 years old and i do not think it had any undercoating when it was new .  I was reading the article from the self starter feb 2009  article by Archie Calise  on the 1959 convertible that had a treatment of Ziebart in 1976 . It started me thinking of my car . I would love to get something done with my undercarriage . I am not ready for a frame off restoration or anything like that . Is there any other options that might be OK .. Thanks Bill
Bill Balkie
1970 Coupe DeVille
2009 CTS

Otto Skorzeny

#1
Personally Bill I think it would be a mistake.

Putting a coating of that nature on your car at this time will serve only to trap moisture, dirt and grime against the metal surfaces, thus promoting the rust you seek to hold at bay.

The rust coatings applied when the cars were new both helped and hurt. If the coating stayed firmly glued to the car, it protected it from water and hence rust. In most cases, however, the coating would chip or peel in various places allowing water to get behind it. This, of course, accelerated the oxidation process since the trapped water couldn't escape.

If you want to rust proof your car with an undercoating, do so only during a frame off restoration. Even then I think it would be pointless because after you put your car back together, you probably won't be driving in the kind of weather that will promote rust in the first place.

Another reason not to do it is that it is a PITA to remove. When you are ready for your frame-off, it will be more work.

Perhaps painting the floor pans and frame with a rust converter would be more appropriate.
fward

Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for YOURSELF

HUGE VENDOR LIST CLICK HERE

jim thomas CLC#15000

If  you deciedto hhave the undercoating applied,  talk to the apprier, make sure he/shedon't applie it to the bottom of the cruise control unit . JIM

Mike Josephic CLC #3877

I have to agree with Forrest on this.

After all of the agony I went through removing the old undercoating from my
'55 -- I would NEVER think of putting anything back on again.  Ny '73 Eldorado
is undercoated (Ziebart) however that was done when it was new.  I also used
this car as a daily driver for a number of years.

So -- if you are going to use your car only in good weather for shows, don't
bother with undercoating.  If you plan to use it as a daily driver in all kinds of
weather you might consider it.  However, the underside would have to be
thorougly cleaned to avoid undercoating over dirt -- which creates more problems
with rust than you'll solve.  That's almost impossible to do unless you take the
body off the frame!

Mike

1955 Cadillac Eldorado
1973 Cadillac Eldorado
1995 Cadillac Seville
2004 Escalade
1997 GMC Suburban 4X4, 454 engine, 3/4 ton
custom built by Santa Fe in Evansville, IN
2011 Buick Lucerne CX
-------------------------------------
CLCMRC Museum Benefactor #38
Past: VP International Affiliates, Museum Board Director, President / Director Pittsburgh Region

Bill Balkie 24172

Thanks Otto ,I value your opionon.  I do not take the car out in bad weather , however it does bother me . I guess i should just live with it . Thanks again Bill
Quote from: Otto Skorzeny on December 13, 2009, 09:01:17 AM
Personally Bill I think it would be a mistake.

Putting a coating of that nature on your car at this time will serve only to trap moisture, dirt and grime against the metal surfaces, thus promoting the rust you seek to hold at bay.

The rust coatings applied when the cars were new both helped and hurt. If the coating stayed firmly glued to the car, it protected it from water and hence rust. In most cases, however, the coating would chip or peel in various places allowing water to get behind it. This, of course, accelerated the oxidation process since the trapped water couldn't escape.

If you want to rust proof your car with an undercoating, do so only during a frame off restoration. Even then I think it would be pointless because after you put your car back together, you probably won't be driving in the kind of weather that will promote rust in the first place.

Another reason not to do it is that it is a PITA to remove. When you are ready for your frame-off, it will be more work.

Perhaps painting the floor pans and frame with a rust converter would be more appropriate.
Bill Balkie
1970 Coupe DeVille
2009 CTS

Bill Balkie 24172

Hi Mike , Thanks for your input , And i will take your advice . However it still bothers me . The good things is that the car is aleays garaged , and only comes out in good weather . I do not want to undercoat just for the sake of undercoating it. Thanks again Bill
Quote from: Mike Josephic  CLC #3877 on December 13, 2009, 03:47:14 PM
I have to agree with Forrest on this.

After all of the agony I went through removing the old undercoating from my
'55 -- I would NEVER think of putting anything back on again.  Ny '73 Eldorado
is undercoated (Ziebart) however that was done when it was new.  I also used
this car as a daily driver for a number of years.

So -- if you are going to use your car only in good weather for shows, don't
bother with undercoating.  If you plan to use it as a daily driver in all kinds of
weather you might consider it.  However, the underside would have to be
thorougly cleaned to avoid undercoating over dirt -- which creates more problems
with rust than you'll solve.  That's almost impossible to do unless you take the
body off the frame!

Mike


Bill Balkie
1970 Coupe DeVille
2009 CTS

Art Woody

I don't see why undercoating the bottom side of your car would hurt anything, as long as you use common sense. I would not use a heavy tar or rubber based product for undercoating at any point of a vehicles life. In a case like yours where the metal has a light coat of surface rust, I would not hesitate to use a slow drying oil based paint such as Rustoleum, to preserve the steel until you decided (if ever) to do a frame off resto. These types of rust preventative paints are designed to dry slowly (believe me it will) so as to soak & penetrate into the rust which actually helps it adhere. Rustoleum and equivalents are usually very thin and for this purpose should be applied directly without any primer, as primers dry too quickly to penetrate, and lie on top of the rust. The chances of retaining moisture with this process is slim to none. A proper steam cleaning of the bottom side with the help of a lift, and removal of grease and any heavy rust where reachable with wire brushes will help the durability. This would be easily removed if you decide to do the frame off down the road, and if not it just might save the metal for the next gen.

Sweede64

Why not try Linseed oil, its an old rustprotector made from linseed, it penetrates he rust in to the bare metal and seals it from oxygen, when you decide to restore the car wash it away whit a good degreecer or hot steam.
Thomas Karlström

RobW

I wouldn't use rustoleum on my car. Its really not that durable for anything that moves and is subject to stone chips and peeling. But for something like a wrought iron railing, rustoleum rusty metal primer works OK if left to dry about a week so the fish oil in it can evaporate and allow their top coat to adhere better.
I would use an automotive epoxy and spray the bottom. Or even POR-15 and a brush, maybe.
Rob Wirsing

Brett Cottel

I'd think about using a rust remover like the bill hirsch stuff or any other product to remove the rust, then clean and paint until your ready for a frame off.  Can't think why someone would leave the bottom of the car rusting.....once it starts...it going to continue. We all wash our cars right? moisture can still affect the car without driving in the rain so my mantra is remove the rust and treat it somehow to get you the protection you need now and at a frame off you can soda blast the paint off without much trouble.
just my 2 cents >:D
Brett
1955 Cadillac Meteor Combination Coach
CLC #27535
Pic's at http://s981.photobucket.com/albums/ae293/brettcottel/

Bill Balkie 24172

Hello Sweede64,  I like the idea of Linseed oil.  I could use a sprayer and i think it would get into most of the hard spots . Have you tried  this yourself ? And if you did how did you apply it .  Thanks Bill
Quote from: Sweede64 on December 15, 2009, 05:30:53 PM
Why not try Linseed oil, its an old rustprotector made from linseed, it penetrates he rust in to the bare metal and seals it from oxygen, when you decide to restore the car wash it away whit a good degreecer or hot steam.
Bill Balkie
1970 Coupe DeVille
2009 CTS

Art Woody

I like the Sweed's idea about the linseed oil and I was about to suggest mixing a half pint to a quart the Rustoleum. It will retard the drying time and add durability to the paint. The color (presumably black) will show you where you have coated or missed, besides looking nice. I would apply primer only to new or sanded & prepped metal as it dries too quickly and does nothing to promote adhesion to surface rust. Once coated, you can keep a check on any further deterioration with the color applied. I have over thirty years experience painting poles and steel structures exposed to weather where thorough rust removal was impractical. Unless you have a trailer queen, a few stone chips will not destroy a frame or floorpan.

Rollochrome

Quote from: jim   thomas   CLC#15000 on December 13, 2009, 03:37:59 PM
If  you deciedto hhave the undercoating applied,  talk to the apprier, make sure he/shedon't applie it to the bottom of the cruise control unit . JIM

HAHA!!!

That's one of those "ask me how I know" comments! :)

Good stuff...
O.P. Smith
CLC Member # 25564
--1976 Cadillac Eldorado convertable, red on white leather
--1991 Cadillac Brougham, white on blue leather
--1991 Chevrolet Suburban Regency Custom Conversion 4wd, white w/ graphics on maroon leather
--1979 Corvette resto-mod
--1969 Kaiser Willis Deuce & 1/2
--a handfull of boring current production daily drivers destined to be tin cans

Rick Peterson #25685


Art Woody

Raw linseed oil will never completely dry. Any dust, dirt, and crud you can stir up for the next year will stick to the under side. You can spray or brush, but I would spray then brush the sags with a soft oil base brush. Stay with it until it levels out. Use boiled linseed, mixes well with oil based paint. Raw linseed is for wood & porous stuff.

Joe

What vintage of car are we talking about here?  If the car is old enough to have the rope seal for the rear main and a hydramatic, there should be PLENTY of oil on the belly of the car to keep it from getting rusty! The frame and floorpans on my '50 will never rot!

Bill Balkie 24172

Hello , This is a 1957 Cadillac
Quote from: Joe on December 17, 2009, 06:17:01 PM
What vintage of car are we talking about here?  If the car is old enough to have the rope seal for the rear main and a hydramatic, there should be PLENTY of oil on the belly of the car to keep it from getting rusty! The frame and floorpans on my '50 will never rot!
Bill Balkie
1970 Coupe DeVille
2009 CTS

Sweede64

Quote from: Bill Balkie 24172 on December 15, 2009, 10:02:34 PM
Hello Sweede64,  I like the idea of Linseed oil.  I could use a sprayer and i think it would get into most of the hard spots . Have you tried  this yourself ? And if you did how did you apply it .  Thanks Bill

you can spray it on with a airgun, heat it up to ap 40dergrees and spray with low pessure. It works fine on allready rustinfected metall, it stops further corotion and penetrates thruog the rust and in to the bare steele, it is not harmful to you or the eviroment.

It has been used for 450 years by blacksmiths around the world.

God luck
Thomas Karlström

Sweede64

Quote from: RICK IN NC on December 16, 2009, 12:49:01 PM
Boiled or raw linseed oil  ?

I prefere boiled, it will dry but stay flexible, protect against stonechip and wear from roadderbries. Raw is much less durable but can climb several inch in seems.
Thomas Karlström

Otto Skorzeny

40 degrees? That's Centigrade, right?

That would be 104*F
fward

Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for YOURSELF

HUGE VENDOR LIST CLICK HERE