Author Topic: Is this car a Cadillac?  (Read 4792 times)

Bill Jones

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Is this car a Cadillac?
« on: January 30, 2010, 01:06:05 PM »
We would like to identify the make and year of this car and perhaps some history, the photos were taken about 1928.
Some features look like Cadillac but we are not sure about the slope of the windshield?
Any help with the identification would be greatly appreciated.
Regards.  - Bill:

Offline Otto Skorzeny

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Re: Is this car a Cadillac?
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2010, 01:42:15 PM »
I don't believe that car is a Cadillac but I'll endeavor to identify it for you.

The car is older than 1928. I would reckon between late teens (1916 or so) and early 20s. That style windshield was popular on various makes around that time but I don't recall ever seeing it on a Cadillac. The scroll work at the base of the body should help to narrow it down.

Do you have any other photos of it? Is the one with the single baby cropped? If so, post the entire photo.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2010, 01:44:25 PM by Otto Skorzeny »
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Bill Jones

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Re: Is this car a Cadillac?
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2010, 02:34:32 PM »
The one with the baby is original size. I have no more pictures unfortunately, but I did try an enlargement of the back area if it helps?
Thanks for the reply.  - Bill:

Offline Otto Skorzeny

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Re: Is this car a Cadillac?
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2010, 02:46:29 PM »
Yes, I blew up both pictures on my computer but no names or logos were on the wheel hubs.

I've been looking through my books and have found similar cars but not that one. I believe it to be built between 1916 and 1922. It might be a year or two newer than that but I doubt it.

The key features are drum style headlights, 4 wheel brakes,  and the visor which covers the two triangular windows. All the pictures of vehicles with similar windshield designs I've looked at have a visor that only covers the main glass.

There were hundreds of car manufacturers in the USA around that time so finding out exactly what it is will be tricky. I did identify a 1915 Paige-Detroit for a friend of mine who sent me a similar family photo with everybody sitting on the running board.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2010, 02:57:26 PM by Otto Skorzeny »
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Offline J. Gomez

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Re: Is this car a Cadillac?
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2010, 03:38:17 PM »
Yes, I blew up both pictures on my computer but no names or logos were on the wheel hubs.

I've been looking through my books and have found similar cars but not that one. I believe it to be built between 1916 and 1922. It might be a year or two newer than that but I doubt it.

The key features are drum style headlights, 4 wheel brakes,  and the visor which covers the two triangular windows. All the pictures of vehicles with similar windshield designs I've looked at have a visor that only covers the main glass.

There were hundreds of car manufacturers in the USA around that time so finding out exactly what it is will be tricky. I did identify a 1915 Paige-Detroit for a friend of mine who sent me a similar family photo with everybody sitting on the running board.

Forrest,

Could that be a 1925(?) Lincoln sedan model, the two key items are the triangle side glass, and the suicide style driver door?? Just a hint..!
J. Gomez
CLC #23082

Offline Otto Skorzeny

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Re: Is this car a Cadillac?
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2010, 03:43:32 PM »
Do you have a photo, Jose?

It doesn't look like one to me. In 1925, Lincoln was owned by Ford and the styling became  much more graceful. Lincoln's had greyhound hood ornaments. That one doesn't seem to fit the profile.

The little side windows on this car are at a nearly 45* angle to the side windows and windshield. On the Lincolns I've seen they are much closer to 90* to windshield.

The headlights on this one also sit lower than those on Lincolns of this vintage.

Afer looking at more photos I can say this is definitely not a Ford era Lincoln.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2010, 03:57:38 PM by Otto Skorzeny »
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Offline Philippe M. Ruel

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Re: Is this car a Cadillac?
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2010, 04:48:21 PM »
1921-25 Stutz closed bodies had the three-part windshield, plus this running board and rear fender design.

From the 1920-1939 American car spotter's guide, many U.S. automotive makes had this three-part windshield between 1920 and 1925, among which : Cunningham, Daniels, HCS, Holmes, Haynes, Hudson, Hupmobile, Jordan, Leach, Lincoln, Marmon, Nash, Oldsmobile, Packard, Pierce-Arrow, R+V Knight, Roamer, Rollin, Stearns-Knight, Stutz, Willys-Knight and Winton.
1952 60 Special in France.

Offline Otto Skorzeny

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Re: Is this car a Cadillac?
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2010, 05:06:52 PM »
Yes. But this one is unique in that the visor extends over all three parts and the angle of the small windows in relation to the side windows is is quite sharp. The visor is also unique in that it has sides that come out and cover the top frame of the small windows. Most others are open or don't cover the little window frame.

The scroll where the body meets the cowl is another distinguishing feature (seen only in the photo with the single kid).
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Offline veesixteen

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Re: Is this car a Cadillac?
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2010, 05:11:53 PM »
The coach sill (or "boot toe" sill) on the front door would seem to exclude any Cadillac from the running ...except perhaps a custom job. Don Lee built such custom jobs, including one with similar triangular windows at the front for a Mr. Norman de Vaux of Oakland, CA. You can see it on p.92 of Walt McCall's book, "75 Years of Cadillac-Lsalle". But that one does not have a front door with a "boot toe" sill.
Yann Saunders, CLC #12588
Compiler and former keeper of "The Cadillac Database"
aka "MrCadillac", aka "Veesixteen"

Re: Is this car a Cadillac?
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2010, 05:43:18 PM »
Post it on the AACA site. More eyes over there.
http://forums.aaca.org/f170/

Offline J. Gomez

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Re: Is this car a Cadillac?
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2010, 06:28:48 PM »
Do you have a photo, Jose?

It doesn't look like one to me. In 1925, Lincoln was owned by Ford and the styling became  much more graceful. Lincoln's had greyhound hood ornaments. That one doesn't seem to fit the profile.

The little side windows on this car are at a nearly 45* angle to the side windows and windshield. On the Lincolns I've seen they are much closer to 90* to windshield.

The headlights on this one also sit lower than those on Lincolns of this vintage.

Afer looking at more photos I can say this is definitely not a Ford era Lincoln.


I only found the following poster, hope this helps..!
J. Gomez
CLC #23082

Offline Otto Skorzeny

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Re: Is this car a Cadillac?
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2010, 07:56:24 PM »
No. Not it.
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Bill Jones

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Re: Is this car a Cadillac?
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2010, 04:02:32 PM »

Yes, I did post AACA and one member to-day suggested a "Marmon 1924 or later" and referred me to "Standard Catalog of American Cars 1805-1942"  I do not have this book, but I did find a picture in the "Old Cars Weekly" website which shows a "1924 Marmon Model 34", it does seem to have some of the features, but it's not a very clear picture and is a front corner view?
Thanks for all the suggestions, and please let me know if you think this could be it.
Regards,  -Bill:

Offline Otto Skorzeny

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Re: Is this car a Cadillac?
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2010, 09:45:04 PM »
That's certainly the closest match I've seen yet. I'll see if I can find some larger pictures. The cowl area with the window angle seems right.

I think we may have a wiener!

This looks like the same car as the one posted by David but islisted here as a 1925 instead of a 24. If the car in question is a Marmon, I think it is an earlier vintage than this 1924/25 model. The heavy wraparound visor certainly matches. The drum lights and cowl treatment are the same.

Differences include a more gracefully rolled fender edge on the blue one and the lack of the "old fashioned" boot sill as Yann called it.

I noticed in my search that Marmons seem to have had painted radiator shells like our mystery car at least as often as chrome ones .

The blue one is a bit larger than the one above - longer distance from front door edge to hood. Note lack of vent on the blue one.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 10:21:35 PM by Otto Skorzeny »
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Offline Otto Skorzeny

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Re: Is this car a Cadillac?
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2010, 10:42:52 PM »
I couldn't find a photo of a closed bodied Marmon of the vintage I suspect the mystery car is. I post this 1920 Marmon convrtible coupe to show the pattern of rivets holding the chassis together (below the body and above the running board. It appears virtually identical to the mystery car.

Also notice the flat stamped edge of the fenders matches the car in question, as does the painted radiator. The joints between the running board and front and rear fenders are identical as well.

I think we can say that the vehicle in question is a Marmon ca 1920.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 10:46:07 PM by Otto Skorzeny »
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Offline Philippe M. Ruel

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Re: Is this car a Cadillac?
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2010, 02:29:04 AM »
I think we can say that the vehicle in question is a Marmon ca 1920.
It must be this ;).


A closer look at my "American car spotter's guide" shows 1922-23 Marmon sedans (4- and 6-window) featuring :

- drum headlights (introduced late 1922)
- the right joints between running board and fenders
- 3-part windshield with the right relationship to cowl (side glass over cowl's level part)
- the right "3-dimensional" visor
- vertical hood louvers (introduced during 1921)
- and (cherry on top of the cake) the right "scroll" design on body in front of and under the doors.

Pictures are more "grey & grey" than "black & white", I don't think I can get a nice reproduction here. They are on bottom of page 166, in the 1986 edition.

The only 1924 model shown in the book is a phaeton, featuring "optional 4-wheel brakes" (can this be a hint ?).
1921- and 1925+ closed bodies shown have flat windshields and visors, and no "scrolls".
1952 60 Special in France.

Art Woody

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Re: Is this car a Cadillac?
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2010, 02:19:13 PM »
The most distinguishing thing that stands out to me besides the the sharp right angle of the rear roofline, is the far end of the body is almost lined up with the center of the rear axle. I don't think you'll find many cars to compare to this feature in a sedan.

Art Woody

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Re: Is this car a Cadillac?
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2010, 04:58:01 PM »
Try looking at a 1922 Nordyke Marmon 4 passenger sedan, and see what you think. Door handles, and windshield looks right, also rear axle position in relation to body looks about right.

Offline Otto Skorzeny

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Re: Is this car a Cadillac?
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2010, 05:16:56 PM »
Nordyke Marmon was a company that made flour mills not cars. One of the Marmon brothers started the Marmon Motor Car Company - wholly separate from the millworks company.

Anyway, do you have a photo you can post? It would be interesting to see another car like the one in Bill's photo. Maybe we could narrow the identity down to a particular model.
fward

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Art Woody

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Re: Is this car a Cadillac?
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2010, 06:26:12 PM »
Nordyke-Marmon buillt flour mill equipment. They started building cars in 1905. Marmon automobiles were made by the Nordyke-Marmon car company. I can't post the picture, but someone can. Just search Nordyke Marmon 1922 4 passenger sedan, and many sources for a 1922 advertisement should be accessable. Hope this will shed light on mystery car. I started my search with Otto's revelations.

 

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