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Requesting the current value of a 1937 V-12 engine in driving condition

Started by Stinson, March 10, 2010, 06:44:42 AM

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Stinson

Hello,
Can anyone provide the current average value of a good running 1937 V-12 engine? This engine is not a show piece, but starts and runs well. It smokes some when first started and clears. It is all there (less the transmission when sold but any 1937 Cadillac trans works other than the 90 series). The engine runs quiet and smooth through the range but there is some tapping. Hope to find a low, mid, and average value.
Thank you,
Ty Stinson
CLC22330
Ty Stinson
'37 Cad 8519 Touring Sedan V12
CLC22330

Stinson

Hello,
I know there are several of you out there owning 1937 V-12 engines. I hope you can suggest an average Ball Park value for my engine. I need to know. I understand the reluctance to suggest a value not having seen this engine run; and I know CLC's concerns regarding removing the original V-12 and replacing it with another. However, I can not affort to pay for the "over restoration" to bring my current engine to the level of the one I can replace it with. I certainly can't keep them both, but I can keep one of them in a Cadillac.
Many thanks,
Ty Stinson
CLC22330
Ty Stinson
'37 Cad 8519 Touring Sedan V12
CLC22330

Barry M. Wheeler #2189

If I am reading you correctly, you have an extra engine plus the one in the car. If your "extra" one runs better than the one in the car, it will be easier to install the one outside the car. If you are thinking that you may get enough from selling the extra one and rebuild the one in the car, given today's costs for specialty work, that probably "ain't gonna happen." Give Terry Wenger a call. He is probably the best multi-cylinder guy around. Good luck.

Ty

Hello Barry,
Thank you for your response. My original V-12 engine is in good condition and runs fine. However, it needs a partial restoration (valves or rings or whatever if necessary) and the manifolds need to be reglazed to bring it up to a competition condition. I already have NOS valve covers and I have budgeted $5,000 for this partial restoration.

However, I have an opportunity to purchase a fully restored and top quality show conditioned V-12 engine ready to replace mine. To make the purchase, I will need to sell mine ASAP. I do not know the current value of a good running 1937 V-12 engine but I intend to use the money from the sale of my engine ($7,000 or more) and the unspent $5,000 to buy the replacement for about $15,000.

Thank you,
Ty Stinson
CLC22330

David King (kz78hy)

Ty

Since your engine runs and is original to your car, keep it.  Restore it later when you can, but keep it with the car, it will help its value later.

My 2 cents

David
David King
CLC 22014  (life)
1958 Eldorado Brougham 615
1959 Eldorado Brougham 56- sold
1960 Eldorado Brougham 83- sold
1998 Deville d'Elegance
1955 Eldorado #277
1964 Studebaker Commander
2012 Volt
CLCMRC benefactor 197

Director and Founder, Eldorado Brougham Chapter
Past President, Motor City Region

Rare Parts brand suspension parts Retailer via Keep'em Running Automotive

Otto Skorzeny

All of that sounds quite logical, Ty but I would bite the bullet and do whatever you can afford to do on your original engine.

You know the engine and its history  and you say it runs well. That means a whole lot more than a good looking "rebuilt' engine that you have no history with. If your current one was cracked or seriously damaged I'd say go with the new one. In this case I think you will regret your decision down the road if you switch engines today because of short term expediency.

The old cliche "it's only original once" is kind of lame but it applies here.
fward

Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for YOURSELF

HUGE VENDOR LIST CLICK HERE

robert G. smits

I would agree with Otto 100%.  You have no way of knowing the quality of the rebuild on the restored engine without a complete tear down. Ask  yourself what it will cost if your new engine develops a knock or poor oil pressure in the first 200 miles. You are not going to be putting 100K miles on your current engine.  If it runs, keep it until you can afford a rebuild.  We all want to assume that everything we purchase is AS ADVERTISED but it AIN'T.
R. Smits, #2426
23 Cad 7P Touring
32 Cad 5P Coupe
38 Cad 90 Series
41 Cad 63 Series
58 Cad Eldo Barritz
The average man can take care of one Woman and two Cadillacs, Al Edmond AACA Past President

Ty

Thank you,
I really appreciate your comments very much. I would still like to know my engine's worth.

I have reviewed the folder regarding the $29,000 (yes $29,000 work of art) restoration on the engine I'm thinking of purchasing. This project was certainly an over kill in costs. But that is what it is.
Ty Stinson
CLC22330

Otto Skorzeny

Another guy on this forum thinks a pile of V16 parts is worth $65,000. Yours is put together and running so it must be worth $100,000!   ;-)

http://www.cadillaclasalleclub.org/forum/index.php/topic,110087.msg159903.html#new
fward

Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for YOURSELF

HUGE VENDOR LIST CLICK HERE

Ty

Thank you,
I'm not the other guy, so why the Smart Ass comment. That is the first one I've received in the several years I have been a member here. All I have asked for is the current value of my engine. Don't bother to respond, I will seek other sources.
Ty Stinson

Otto Skorzeny

It's a joke, Ty (that's why I included the smiling face with the winking eye).  It was aimed at the other guy's ridiculous ad.
fward

Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for YOURSELF

HUGE VENDOR LIST CLICK HERE

John Tozer #7946

Hi Ty,

Just a few thoughts based on my own experience and feelings about my '37 75. (By the way, I have the trunk floor photos and templates if you still need them):

My '37 75 came with, like virtually every remaining '36 or '37 here in Oz, a "tank" engine. About 15 years ago I had that tank engine comprehensively re-built. New sleeve in one badly rusted cylinder, re-bored, new pistons, rings, piston pins, crankshaft ground, new big end and rod bearings, camshaft ground and the whole block faced to the heads and tunnel bored. New valve seats, valves and valve gear, all ready to go back together when I found someone silly enough to repair the damage and rust in the body. Didn't happen that way - I eventually bought another 75 series body on Ebay, brought it over here and was amazed and delighted to find that it came with an original numbered '37 75 series engine, albeit in need of work.

I say amazed and delighted because these motors simply don't exist here - it was too easy and too cheap after WW2 to buy a tank engine and drop it in than do any work to these engines so the chances of me ever finding the or an original engine are zilch!

As a consequence, I now have a fully re-built tank (which, by the way, other than for the engine number and the ribs cast on the ends of the block, is almost indistinguishable from the real '37) and an original engine in need of work. There is simply "no contest" as to which engine I will install in the car because of the originality and the substantial effect it will have on the value of the car when it is finished. I have no idea what it cost to re-build the "tank" all that time ago but it isn't really relevant. I will have the original re-built and then sell the "tank" for whatever I can get for it to fund the work on the '37.

So in your case, for the same reasons, I would, as long as it is the original engine for your car and not an earlier "swap", stay with that engine. I know this doesn't answer your question but I guess that's because I am presuming to tell you that it's the wrong question.

It seems to me that ther will be some net cash difference in the transaction you are contemplating - i.e., that you are going to have to "top up" the purchase price of the new engine over and above the proceeds of the sale of your existing engine. Your question is really aimed at finding out what that "top up" will be before you move on the new engine - wise move!

Perhaps you should also take the car to a reasonable but reliable engine re-builder near your home for an opinion on what might be required. I could have stopped my re-builder at several stages during the re-build of the "tank" because there is work that HAS to be done (given the miles we will ever do in these cars - heads and valves, maybe rings and bearings) and work that isn't essential. I have found that the "might-as-well-do-it-all-while-you-have-it-apart" argument adds $$$$$ to the costs of this work when the attitude in your case maybe should be "how-much-do-I-want-to-spend-and-what-essential-work-can-I-get-for-those-dollars?"

Notwithstanding the relative rarity here of my '37 engine, like you, I have kids at university (2) and new grandkids (2) and that means I do not have unlimited funds to re-build an original V12 (or V8 for that matter) to factory spec. or better.

Just a thought or two for you to chew on....

Regards,



John Tozer
#7946

Ty


Otto, as you can see, there is no smiling face here (;-) other than mine. Thank you for your followup. Seems I should keep my original engine in the car, but you should see that better-than-new-one. I may purchase it to haul behind my car mounted on a small trailer so people can see and hear it run at car shows. Hard to pass it up for $11,000. I still need to know if this is a good investment though for the future, and keep it out of a potential hot rod. Someone will need an original "type" V-12 engine if they don't already have a matching number. I can pass around the hat for funds to restore my own, but I don't want to let this one go. Still thinking of putting it in my car now and save my old one. The seller wanted $15,000 for it but there is a car he wants to purchase and has offered it to me for $11,000 pending his getting the car he wants. If so, I will have to act on it fast as he will need the funds. By the way, there are several posts now having my name but posted by others. What is going on?
Ty Stinson
CLC22330

Ty

Now they are gone! Or have I been seeing things?
Thank you,
Ty Stinson
CLC22330

Stinson

Good luck guys, it is now on E-bay starting for $20,000. They rejected my final offer this morning of $12,300.
Ty Stinson
Ty Stinson
'37 Cad 8519 Touring Sedan V12
CLC22330

Otto Skorzeny

That makes your decision easier about what to do with your car then. That should give you some peace of mind right there.


Thar she blows!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1932-1937-CADILLAC-V12-REBUILT-ENGINE-DOCUMENTED_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem439e0da9a9QQitemZ290414504361QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

Is this engine being sold by the rebuilder? Did the owner flake out on the deal and leave it behind or what?
fward

Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for YOURSELF

HUGE VENDOR LIST CLICK HERE

Stinson

The photos are not how it looks today. It is much better. The owner died. As I said, this was an estate sale.
Sizzle,
Ty Stinson
Ty Stinson
'37 Cad 8519 Touring Sedan V12
CLC22330

Otto Skorzeny

Do you know why the engine wasn't put back in the car it came from?
fward

Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for YOURSELF

HUGE VENDOR LIST CLICK HERE

Ty

The story I got was that a wealthy man had three Cadillacs in various stages of restoration. A chasse was completed and an engine had been completed and a body was in great shape. The engine had been restored for $29,000 (a very high over kill but that the man wanted it perfect). Then I was told that it was $19,000, $16,000, and apparently around $15,000 today on E-bay. Whatever, when I looked at it in NY, Long Island last Sunday it was offered to me for $15,000 and I turned it down. Then I was offered it for $11,000 if a purchase of a LaSalle went through. Then last night we agreed to $12,300 cash if I purchased a starter and a transmission to go with the engine. However that depended on a partner agreeing to selling the package for $12,300. As you can see, it is now on e-bay starting for $20,000. I am pissed for a lack of a good word because they did not even tell me that they had just put it on E-bay, would not accept my money, and I feel I have been jerked around. However, for those of you interested in the engine, I can tell you that those V-12 carbs on E-bay came off that engine, and you can see the condition. Those photos on E-bay do not do the engine justice. Those photos came out of the folder in various stages of restoration. The ones that appear finished I believe are the engine prior to restoration. I think this is true because when I saw the engine last week it is mounted on a stand with wheels and there is no flaw to the paint as I remember it.
Good luck,
Ty Stinson

Stinson

Okay guys. Looks like I will have to work with my original engine. Just thought I would show you the "Now" and the "Future".
Thanks,
Ty Stinson
Ty Stinson
'37 Cad 8519 Touring Sedan V12
CLC22330