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Author Topic: 41 Cad engine color  (Read 3257 times)

Offline Gregg Magnuson clc#25863

  • Posts: 15
  • CLC Number: 25863
  • Name: Gregg Magnuson
41 Cad engine color
« on: March 14, 2010, 05:10:28 PM »
I'm rebuilding a 41 convertible coupe, 346 v8 with 3 speed trans. What is the orig engine color?
Any ideas on where to get paint?   Gregg Magnuson cls#25863

Offline Otto Skorzeny

  • Posts: 3853
  • 1956 Coupe de Ville aka Bismarck
Re: 41 Cad engine color
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2010, 05:31:15 PM »
Various vendors sell it but it's a Bill Hirsch product. Click on the link in my signature and look for Bill Hirsch.

The color is a vomit colored pea green a la Linda Blair in The Exorcist.
fward

Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for YOURSELF

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Offline Doug Houston

  • Posts: 852
  • CLC Number: 2257
Re: 41 Cad engine color
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2010, 05:42:56 PM »
I have four '41 Cadillacs, and when I panted the engines and transmissions, I had used Dodge Bell Telephone green, and it did the job just fine. But that enamel is just so good, and didn't live very well on the heads.

Thr popular source today, is Bill hirsch, in Newark, NJ.

I'm having some work done on my car, like yours, and I'm going to have all of the small brackets pulleys, etc., powder coated. There is a powder coat in hi temp, that I'll have the heads done in. The color code for the proper green is: RAL 6003.

The fan blades are black, and the plug wire towers, black as well. Generator, distributor and starter are also black.  Generator pulley is black, and the fan pulley is green.

Air cleaner is black, and its front support bracket is green.
38-6019S
38-9039
39-9057B
41-6227D
41-6019SF
41-6229D
41-6267D
56-6267
70-DeV Conv
41-Chev 41-1167
41 Olds 41-3929

Offline Doug Houston

  • Posts: 852
  • CLC Number: 2257
Re: 41 Cad engine color
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2010, 05:45:10 PM »
NOW, Otto!!!
38-6019S
38-9039
39-9057B
41-6227D
41-6019SF
41-6229D
41-6267D
56-6267
70-DeV Conv
41-Chev 41-1167
41 Olds 41-3929

Offline Otto Skorzeny

  • Posts: 3853
  • 1956 Coupe de Ville aka Bismarck
Re: 41 Cad engine color
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2010, 05:47:53 PM »
Dodge Bell Telephone green

Can you believe a major corporation chose that color to represent it's image to the public. Sheesh!
fward

Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for YOURSELF

HUGE VENDOR LIST CLICK HERE

Re: 41 Cad engine color
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2010, 06:37:15 PM »


The color is a vomit colored pea green a la Linda Blair in The Exorcist.
IMO, the color is only as described above on very many flatheads painted the same wrong color.  The correct, original color is a non-offensive (handsome, even) medium-dark green.

Offline Otto Skorzeny

  • Posts: 3853
  • 1956 Coupe de Ville aka Bismarck
Re: 41 Cad engine color
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2010, 07:12:01 PM »
I've heard that before. How is it that Bill Hirsch's offering has become the de facto correct color despite its being so far off according to experts?
fward

Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for YOURSELF

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Offline Fred Zwicker #23106

  • Posts: 616
  • 1930 LaSalle Conv. Coupe - Restored
  • CLC Number: 23106
  • Name: Fred Zwicker
Re: 41 Cad engine color
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2010, 07:16:31 PM »
Here is the Bill Hirsch Cadillac Green on my 1939 LaSalle engine, which should be the same as used in 1941 on your Cadillac  - available in spray cans and quarts - looks to be correct color to me and did not burn off when engine warmed up.  Evidently the judges did not find a problem with this color, as car received a 1st place and a senior at the 2008 GN.
 
Fred
1930 LaSalle Convertible Coupe, CCCA Senior
1939 LaSalle 2-Dr. Conv.  CLC Senior in 2008
1940 Cadillac Series 75 4 Dr. Convertible
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1948 Cadillac Convertible - modified by Holly (driver)
1966 Cadillac DeVille Conv. Restored - Red
See Pictures at www.tpcarcollection.com

Mark Lowery

  • Guest
Re: 41 Cad engine color
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2010, 07:27:30 PM »
I have four '41 Cadillacs, and when I panted the engines and transmissions, I had used Dodge Bell Telephone green, and it did the job just fine. But that enamel is just so good, and didn't live very well on the heads.

Thr popular source today, is Bill hirsch, in Newark, NJ.

I'm having some work done on my car, like yours, and I'm going to have all of the small brackets pulleys, etc., powder coated. There is a powder coat in hi temp, that I'll have the heads done in. The color code for the proper green is: RAL 6003.

The fan blades are black, and the plug wire towers, black as well. Generator, distributor and starter are also black.  Generator pulley is black, and the fan pulley is green.

Air cleaner is black, and its front support bracket is green.
Doug,
I too painted my various engine components with the Bell-tel green then recognized as a good match for the original color about 35 years ago.  I now think I'll redo the heads w/ powder coating in the RAL 6003 that you mentioned.  One thing came up in a conversation w/ the fellow doing the powder coating;  he said I might want to check the heads and perhaps have them surfaced again after the powder coating.  An interesting observation as the cure temperature (375-400 F) is probably above the operating temperature of the exterior of the head.  So the real question which I would like to see addressed by someone with a metallurgical background is as follows:  Does subjecting the Cadillac Flathead head to temperatures in this range while unrestrained (off the engine) actually risk warping the head to some degree?  I wouldn't doubt that it would be prudent to surface an aluminum head after powder-coating, but is this really an issue with cast iron (probably "grey-iron")?

Mark Lowery, CLC#25216

Offline Otto Skorzeny

  • Posts: 3853
  • 1956 Coupe de Ville aka Bismarck
Re: 41 Cad engine color
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2010, 07:31:55 PM »
Why powder coat in the first place and risk damage. If the heads are properly prepped, aerosol or paint applied with a gun will stay on without peeling or discoloring for a long long time.
fward

Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for YOURSELF

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Offline Gregg Magnuson clc#25863

  • Posts: 15
  • CLC Number: 25863
  • Name: Gregg Magnuson
Re: 41 Cad engine color
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2010, 07:48:03 PM »
Thanks for all the paint ideas, I got my answer. I've been wondering and asking about this for several weeks and now got my answer in 1 hr. This forum stuff is new to me, but I'll be back with more questions.

Offline Otto Skorzeny

  • Posts: 3853
  • 1956 Coupe de Ville aka Bismarck
Re: 41 Cad engine color
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2010, 07:49:39 PM »
Wait, what? This thread answered your question? How'd that happen?
fward

Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for YOURSELF

HUGE VENDOR LIST CLICK HERE

Offline Glen

  • Posts: 2789
  • CLC Number: 727
  • Name: Glen Houlton
Re: 41 Cad engine color
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2010, 12:55:59 AM »
 An interesting observation as the cure temperature (375-400 F) is probably above the operating temperature of the exterior of the head.  So the real question which I would like to see addressed by someone with a metallurgical background is as follows:  Does subjecting the Cadillac Flathead head to temperatures in this range while unrestrained (off the engine) actually risk warping the head to some degree?  I wouldn't doubt that it would be prudent to surface an aluminum head after powder-coating, but is this really an issue with cast iron (probably "grey-iron")?

Mark Lowery, CLC#25216

I can’t answer your question directly but I can tell you this:

I was rebuilding antennas in the Navy shipyard.  The antennas are made of thin aluminum rectangular tubing.  The process was to disassemble them clean and paint the pieces, then reassemble and test. 

After rebuilding several of these and sending the pieces off to the paint shop with no problems, the environment office had the process changed to powder coating. 

None of those antennas would go back together after powder coating because they all changed dimensions.  Bolt holes no longer lined up and the conductors that went into the center of the rectangular tubing would not fit inside.  There was no way to reassemble the antennas. 

I’ve brought this up on a couple of occasions, writing to magazines that advocate powder coating, but nobody seems to be able to confirm my experience. 

Glen

Glen Houlton CLC #727 
CLCMRC benefactor #104

Offline Bob Schuman

  • Posts: 572
  • CLC Number: 254
  • Name: Robert Schuman
Re: 41 Cad engine color
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2010, 08:14:47 AM »
I painted my 41 engine with Bill Hirsch Cadillac Green engine paint in 1974. It matched the original paint in areas where engine heat had not affected the original color. After 35 years and 47000 miles it still looks good.

I think I have learned why so many Cadillac flatheads are painted very wrong shades of green. Photos of my engine taken in direct sunlight cause the engine to look bright apple green, other shades of lighter green, or even gray. Someone who doesn't know the correct color could use such photos as the correct reference and then paint their engine wrong.
Bob Schuman,CLC#254
Bob Schuman, CLC#254
1951 6137
2017 CT6-unsatisfactory (repurchased by GM)
1948 Olds 98 Custom
2020 XT6

Mark Lowery

  • Guest
Re: 41 Cad engine color
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2010, 12:39:30 PM »
Why powder coat in the first place and risk damage. If the heads are properly prepped, aerosol or paint applied with a gun will stay on without peeling or discoloring for a long long time.
Otto,
I don't really think Doug or I would be risking damage.  Just setting ourselves up for an additional visit to the machine shop.  In my particular case, the machine work was done so long ago, and the conditions of storage were far from ideal (yeah, my garage) that I'll probably invest in a light cut anyhow.  The question boils down to should I have them powder coated first and then risk some damage to the paint transporting them to the machine shop and in their set up etc. Or should should I surface the heads first and then have them powder-coated?  I would prefer the later if there is little or no chance of warping due to the cure temperatures involved in curing the Polyester Powder Coating.

As to why would I want to use Powder in the first place, very simple; the stuff is tough as nails. What w/ the heads being a prominent feature of the finished engine, and the head bolts bearing on the painted surface, I like to have the best product in place at that particular location.

So again, I'd like to get a response from someone w/ a background in Metallurgy that is specific to the material used in the heads and the temperatures I cited in the range of 375-400F.  There has got to be more than a few people in the CLC that have that background.  Perhaps they just aren't reading a post that started out on the topic of the correct color for the Flatheads (my apologies Gregg).

Mark Lowery, CLC#25216

Barry M. Wheeler #2189

  • Guest
Re: 41 Cad engine color
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2010, 10:44:59 AM »
Way back in the olden days, Bell Telephone green was the only thing available. (1964 or so.) Can you believe Doug Houston and I have been swapping parts and lies for that long????


Offline mgrab

  • Mike Grabianowski, CLC # 25586
  • Posts: 99
Re: 41 Cad engine color
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2010, 02:44:29 PM »
My two cents on the distortion of the heads......
My guess is that the temperature is not nearly as critical as the rate at which the temperature is met and the rate at which the head is brought back to ambient room temperature.  I would imagine that a long heat up and long cool down would be the best but the person doing the coating should have some experience enough to make that judgement....if the guy looks at you like a deer in the headlights.....I'd go somewhere else....
Probably is some....maybe negligible distortion....
Mike
1941 Cadillac 6267D
1948 Packard Custom Eight Victoria
1956 Oldsmobile 88 Sedan

Mark Lowery

  • Guest
Re: 41 Cad engine color
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2010, 03:49:34 PM »
Mike,
Yes, rate of both heating and cooling is certainly a consideration; and the fellow doing the powder coating is aware of that.  He is actually the person that suggested that I check the heads after the process.  He (Lloyd Knifong) is actually a certified Gear Head.  That is one of the reasons that I use Platinum Powder Coating in a city (Chico, CA) about 160 miles from where I live.  For all his experience though, I don't think he has ever done a Cadillac Flathead head before.  Just wondering if anyone has gone through the process w/ the 346 or 322 heads and what the outcome was.

BTW, due to my interest, he now has RAL 6003 on hand in a quantity that will be more than my work will require.

Mark Lowery, CLC #25216

Offline r thomas

  • Posts: 16
Re: 41 Cad engine color
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2010, 04:38:44 PM »
I LIKE the Cadillac green from Hirsh,,,I think it is cool, I would never take a chance with heat warpage when this paint stays on so well. plus it is so easy to touch up as needed. I know powder coating is tough, but it will chip away under bolt heads and such. RD ::) 8)

Offline markl

  • Posts: 256
Re: 41 Cad engine color
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2010, 12:10:03 AM »
All,
Thought I resurrect this topic, as I now have my heads back from the powder coater (Platinum Powder coating in Chico, CA) and the work is beautiful.  Just got around to taking them to the machine shop (Norman Racing Group) to have them checked for flatness after the process.

The result is that they are still perfectly flat.  So, in retrospect, I'd continue to recommend RAL 6003 as the appropriate color for the Cad/LaSalle flathead engine and in particular for the heads as there doesn't seem to be any issue w/ the cure temperature that is involved in the process.  Also, as I stated before (perhaps in another post), the operational temperature of the Flathead head is low enough that regular polyester Powder Coating is up to the task.  No need to use the High temperature formulations. 

Mark Lowery, CLC#25216

 

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