Electrical Help '62 Eldorado

[Gary Christensen CLC # 21112]

I need some help figuring out an electrical problem on my '62 Eldorado.  Both the electric top and the electric seats don't work.  I have confirmed that the power lead to the top and to the seat switch has no juice.  The windows work.

I've pulled most of the dash off to try and trace the problem along with the left door panel.

From what I can tell from the wiring diagrams in my service guide and from what I'm seeing, my hypothesis is that the power for the seat and top comes from a splice on the body harness.  The windows and all of the other things driven by the body harness work fine.  It looks to me like the body harness feed goes into the left door where it powers the windows and where I believe the splice for the seat control and top happens.  If it were working correctly, I believe that the power to the top then comes back out of the door and continues on to the top switch and beyond.  Beyond to what, I don't know (but there must be some downstream items that don't have power, since the top is another splice in that wire bundle that then connects to another connector after the switch.

Does anyone know whether I've got the routing right?  Namely that the hot wire from the body harness goes into the door and then should be coming back out of the door to the top switch and beyond?  If I'm right, I have to pull the wires out of the door (which seems difficult).  I don't want to tackle that if I've got it wrong.

Does anyone have a wiring diagram for a '62 body harness?  The "picture" in the service guide doesn't show much and certainly doesn't show colors, pins, switches, etc.  There must be a separate wiring diagram for the body harness in existence -- just not in the service manual.

Finally, as part of taking things apart I have stumbled upon the "neutral safety switch" at the base of the steering column.  I've looked it up in my manual, but nothing tells me what it is.  The electrical connections are disconnected and a bridge wire has been put in place.  It looks to me like the wires from each side of the bridge should be attached to the "neutral safety switch", but I don't want to mess with it without understanding it better.

Help!!!

Gary

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

G'day Gary,

Regarding the Neutral Start Safety Switch (NSS), and the Jumper Wire, it looks like someone in the past decided that they wanted to be able to start the engine in any gear.   Or the Switch is broken, and they couldn't get a replacement.

Either way, without the NSS working, you will also have no Automatic Park Brake Release, or Reversing Lights when placing the gear selector into reverse.

The common problem with the non-operation of the NSS is that the tab that hangs down inside the Steering Column and is operated by the Shifter Tube, breaks off.

You will have to look deeper into it, and first place the car in gear, and with the foot hard on the Brake Pedal, see if the engine will crank over.   If it does, then stop immediately so you don't start it, and surge forwards, or rearwards.   This indicates that it not working correctly.

Bruce.

[J. Gomez]

Gary,

Traditionally these items power windows, power seats, etc are feed directly from a hot 12V source via circuit breakers which could be share or wire individually depending on the application. Since this is an Eldorado it could well have a power relay to provide the 12V source to the breakers.

In your case it seems the power seat and top maybe sharing the same breaker. These usually are place somewhere on the right or left hand side behind the side kick panels, or under the dash.

Maybe a member with a ’62 could provide the location where these are hidden and you can start from there before tearing down the complete dash.

Good luck..!

PS If you need the generic wiring diagrams for the '62 you can find them at;

http://www.tocmp.com/tOCMP/wiring/5765wiring%20diagrams/Cadillac/MWireCadi65_3WD-044.jpg
http://www.tocmp.com/tOCMP/wiring/5765wiring%20diagrams/Cadillac/MWireCadi65_3WD-045.jpg

[Jim Sparrow]

I'd check for power at the fuse block. Probe both sides of the fuse or breaker. If you have power on one side only, fuse or breaker is bad. Power (+) comes in on one side, passes through the fuse or breaker then out the other side to the components on that circuit. If the fuse block tests ok, since you have no power at the switches, the break is in between. If you have no power on that circuit at the fuse block the break is somewhere in the wire(s) that feed that circuit in the fuse block. HTH   -Jim

[Gary Christensen CLC # 21112]

Bruce,

Thanks for letting me know about the NSS.  Your info makes sense because my reverse lights aren't working either...  I'll reconnect the NSS and see what happens.  I know something is broken in the column because the shifter doesn't lock in Park.  There's no "detent" between Park and Neutral, which is not ideal since that means it's easy to bump it out of Park, allowing the car to roll.  I've done that several times whilst working under the dash and figured it out before the car hit something.

Thanks.

Gary

G'day Gary,

Regarding the Neutral Start Safety Switch (NSS), and the Jumper Wire, it looks like someone in the past decided that they wanted to be able to start the engine in any gear.   Or the Switch is broken, and they couldn't get a replacement.

Either way, without the NSS working, you will also have no Automatic Park Brake Release, or Reversing Lights when placing the gear selector into reverse.

The common problem with the non-operation of the NSS is that the tab that hangs down inside the Steering Column and is operated by the Shifter Tube, breaks off.

You will have to look deeper into it, and first place the car in gear, and with the foot hard on the Brake Pedal, see if the engine will crank over.   If it does, then stop immediately so you don't start it, and surge forwards, or rearwards.   This indicates that it not working correctly.

Bruce.

[Gary Christensen CLC # 21112]

Jose,

The wiring diagram in my service manual indicates that I should have a breaker, which I've looked for to no avail.  It's part of why almost all of the dash is off at this point along with the kick panel and door panel.  Although I'm not sure what it should exactly look like, I imagine I would be able to recognize the breaker when I see it.  But I've not found any gizmo in the line whatsoever.  The only place I can't see is in the door itself, since the wires are hidden far from the access hole.  I'm guessing that the breaker was a victim of a previous owner's tinkering.

Just to be sure, what should it look like and how would I "reset" it if I were to find a breaker?

Also, thanks for the diagrams.

Gary

Gary,

Traditionally these items power windows, power seats, etc are feed directly from a hot 12V source via circuit breakers which could be share or wire individually depending on the application. Since this is an Eldorado it could well have a power relay to provide the 12V source to the breakers.

In your case it seems the power seat and top maybe sharing the same breaker. These usually are place somewhere on the right or left hand side behind the side kick panels, or under the dash.

Maybe a member with a ’62 could provide the location where these are hidden and you can start from there before tearing down the complete dash.

Good luck..!

PS If you need the generic wiring diagrams for the '62 you can find them at;

http://www.tocmp.com/tOCMP/wiring/5765wiring%20diagrams/Cadillac/MWireCadi65_3WD-044.jpg
http://www.tocmp.com/tOCMP/wiring/5765wiring%20diagrams/Cadillac/MWireCadi65_3WD-045.jpg

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

The wiring diagram in my service manual indicates that I should have a breaker, which I've looked for to no avail.   Gary

Circuit Breakers in cars aren't the "Re-settable" type like in homes. but actually "Circuit Interrupters" where the current connection is opened and closed constantly till the current is stopped, like by releasing the button.

If there is no "Locking of the gear lever in park, I would suggest that you really look deeper into the internals of the steering column, and see what has been broken, or strained in there to allow the lever to "fall"

Bruce.

[Dave Shepherd]

I rememeber that circuit breaker plugged right into the fuse block back then, check closely maybe someone removed it or used a fuse instead.

[J. Gomez]

Gary,

Bruce stated perfectly as to the operation of the breaker. I’m attaching a picture of what they should look like, a metal can with two threaded lugs were wires connect.

Maybe a member with a ’62 could lead you as to where about these maybe hiding this way you can start at the source. 

Tracing wires through the hardness is difficult when you start cutting into the tape or cloth section by section. Not knowing what the previous owner has done to the car, it will be like a hit and miss game. Maybe you are lucky and the previous owner just disconnects the main feed at the breaker.

Good luck…!

[35-709]

According to my '62 Cadillac Shop Manual, page 12-52, there is a 40 amp circuit breaker for the power top (they call it Hydro-Lectric) in the fuse panel.  There is also a 40 amp breaker in the fuse panel for the seats and windows --- the manual reads that, "On cars equipped with electric seats and/or windows, a 40 amp circuit breaker is substituted in the fuse panel in place of the 25 amp horn fuse."

It would seem therefore that your top and seats not working are 2 separate problems.  It is "possible" that the circuit breaker for your top is bad but more likely (as Bruce said they will reset themselves once the offending short or power is removed) there is a wiring problem elsewhere.  Confirm you have power at both sides of the circuit breaker at the fuse panel and work your way back to the top motor from there.

Geoff N.

[David King (kz78hy)]

Gary

If you have power through the breaker, check the top switch.  The contacts burn away as this is such a high amp. circuit.  My GTO had a bad switch. 

David

[Gary Christensen CLC # 21112]

Jose,

Thanks a ton for the picture.  It's worth a thousand words.  I now see that the breaker (which is supposed to be in lieu of a fuse according to my service manual) has been replaced by a fuse.  So that's not it.

There's a bad wire at some point.  If I can figure out which "way" the power is running I can back up until I find a spot where there still is a hot line.  I am just having trouble figuring out where hot is coming from, and I believe (and fear) that it is in the door.  I've been unwinding the original tape all over the place.  What a mess.

I'm really bummed because the nice "top down" season in CT is almost here and I think it's going to take me most of the summer to figure this out.  Argh.

Thanks again.

Gary

Gary,

Bruce stated perfectly as to the operation of the breaker. I’m attaching a picture of what they should look like, a metal can with two threaded lugs were wires connect.

Maybe a member with a ’62 could lead you as to where about these maybe hiding this way you can start at the source. 

Tracing wires through the hardness is difficult when you start cutting into the tape or cloth section by section. Not knowing what the previous owner has done to the car, it will be like a hit and miss game. Maybe you are lucky and the previous owner just disconnects the main feed at the breaker.

Good luck…!

[Gary Christensen CLC # 21112]

David,

Thanks for the tip, but the switch was the first thing I checked.  My volt meter tells me that I don't have power to the switch, so it's somewhere else.

Gary

Gary

If you have power through the breaker, check the top switch.  The contacts burn away as this is such a high amp. circuit.  My GTO had a bad switch. 

David

[Jim Sparrow]

I don't have a '62 diagram but if the "ignition relay" is involved, as in later model ('66 & '67) convertibles, it will most likely be found behind the kick panel to the left of the parking brake. That's where it was in '66-'67. Just a thought. Hope that helps.    -Jim

[35-709]

According to the shop manual the feed for the convertible top switch comes off the power window feed, #10 gauge red wire.  Follow the wire from the top switch back to where it is branched off from the power window feed wire.  It would seem to me if your power windows are working the fault must be between the conv.top switch and the power window feed.
Geoff N.

[quadfins]

I agree with Geoff.  Look near the fuse box, and you should see the big red wire coming out from where the circuit breaker is (should be) connected. It should split once for the power seat, and then again for the top. I suspect that, if both seat and top don't work, there must be a bad or missing connection in this area. But if the windows work, it is not with the breaker (or, in your case, fuse), and the break comes after the wire for the windows comes out of the fuse box.

[quadfins]

Oh, and with your neutral safety switch, that is unconnected to the top problem. Once you get the top straightened out, then we'll deal with the NSS. Many of us have been through it - my tab was broken, too, and none of the systems worked as designed. But it is a simple fix.

[Gary Christensen CLC # 21112]

Geoff,

I too have read the information that the feed for the top comes off of the power window feed and I've been trying to trace backwards just as you suggest.  My problem is that I think the place that it branches off of the power window feed wire is inside of the door.  I've pulled the door panel, but of course you can't see the wires up inside.  I'm pretty sure that the break must be the splice at that point, because it looks to me like the feed for the power window comes from the dash harness across the car and into the door.

Pulling the wires out of the door seems pretty tricky, which is why I am hoping someone can validate my understanding before I go at it.

I'd love to replace the harness completely, but apparently no one makes replacements for the window harness.

Thanks for confirming some of what I've figured out.

Gary

According to the shop manual the feed for the convertible top switch comes off the power window feed, #10 gauge red wire.  Follow the wire from the top switch back to where it is branched off from the power window feed wire.  It would seem to me if your power windows are working the fault must be between the conv.top switch and the power window feed.
Geoff N.

[Gary Christensen CLC # 21112]

Jim,

Where you're suggesting is where I started.  I figured it would be easy to find the split.  That big red wire (or at least the taped bundle in which the red wire exists) heads off across the dash and goes into the door.  Two bundles come out of the door -- one of which leads to the split where the feed for the top switch branches off.  The only part of the trail I can't see is the part that's in the door.

I have the panel off and all of the window and seat switches disconnected.  To pull the wires back through the door -- and that accordion tube is very crowded -- means that I have to disconnect the wires from the window motors and to somehow pull the whole kit and kaboodle through the little accordion tube, I think.

I can't find any wiring diagrams for the window harness, which should show me exactly what is going on inside of the door.  There's only a "picture" in the service manual, which is totally not helpful.

All of the bundles seem to have the original tape on them, so it's not apparent to me that a previous owner mucked with this part of the electrical.  At the same time, I think there is supposed to be a connector between the dash harness and the window harness, which I don't see at all.  I can't feel a connector inside of the door either -- just another big blob of taped wires.

If someone could verify for me that the power goes into the door and then splits off to come back out, I'd bite the bullet and try to get the wires out.  If I've got it wrong, I'm loathe to attempt the feat since I know I'm going to ruin something in the process.  If I could find a wiring diagram or could purchase a new harness I'd just do so in order to put it back to what it is "supposed" to be.  I can tell that over time there have been some creative additions to the wiring -- why does anyone ever make "custom" fixes (e.g. splicing in wrong colored wires, bridging things that shouldn't be bridged)?

Are there tips for getting the wiring out of the door?  My service manual doesn't say anything about doing that.

I really appreciate everyone's advice!

Gary

I agree with Geoff.  Look near the fuse box, and you should see the big red wire coming out from where the circuit breaker is (should be) connected. It should split once for the power seat, and then again for the top. I suspect that, if both seat and top don't work, there must be a bad or missing connection in this area. But if the windows work, it is not with the breaker (or, in your case, fuse), and the break comes after the wire for the windows comes out of the fuse box.

[quadfins]

   Well, I don't know what to tell you. The diagrams indicate, and my observations support, that the power connection, at least for the seat, comes off right near the fuse box. I can't imagine any reason to run the power through the door first, then back to the top motor. I would not yet go yanking the wires and connectors through the door boots. Those 3-pronged connectors for the windows are awfully big, and liable to snag on something. But if you must, tie a string to them before you pull them out, so that you can pull them back through later.
   In the meantime, I would still investigate further the area around the fuse box. If I can get a digital camera up there in the next few days, I'll snap a shot of the window/seat wires.