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1936-1939 Cadillac question

Started by Huffstutler, August 23, 2010, 11:45:08 AM

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Huffstutler

I tried this on the Facebook site but was encouraged to try here hoping that one of the 7,000 registered owners will surely be able to help?

Again, seeking frame diagrams with dimensions from the Shop manuals for years 1936-1939 Cadillac / LaSalle.

Now, I may not need all of those years because I have the 1940 which someone was kind enough to scan and email to me.  If the 1939 is the same, no need for that year either but how about 1938?  Was it slightly different?  And how about the small size models?

Someone also sent me the 1934-1935 so set there which leaves possibly 1936-1937 or 1938, those 2 or 3 years and the two or so different frame styles for them.

Anyone willing with 1936, 1937, or 1938-1939?

Any help greatly appreciated!

Eric
Eric Huffstutler

markl

Eric,
Well, all this information for 37 cars appears in the Shop Manual.  Even though the shop manual is entitled as  applying  to both 37 & 38 models, the information is only called out as applying to the various 37 Cadillac and LaSalle series.  Since I own a 37 I have never bothered w/ the issue of whether the dimensions, specifications etc. are the same for 37 & 38 unless mentioned otherwise.  Hopefully someone more knowledgeable on this topic will comment on that issue.

So, before I scan the particular pages (or fax if you will give me a fax number), could you tell us all what you are doing w/ this information?  I am curious as to why you would want such a broad spectrum of years if you are only working on a specific car.  Do you perhaps own a frame machine?

If so, please mention this fact as it would be a benefit to CLC members in your area to know you have the service available, and now have the salient dimensions.

Mark Lowery, CLC #25216

Huffstutler

Quote from: markl on August 23, 2010, 07:24:02 PM

So, before I scan the particular pages (or fax if you will give me a fax number), could you tell us all what you are doing w/ this information?  I am curious as to why you would want such a broad spectrum of years if you are only working on a specific car.  Do you perhaps own a frame machine?

If so, please mention this fact as it would be a benefit to CLC members in your area to know you have the service available, and now have the salient dimensions.

Mark,

I have been reluctant to mention my motives because I was sure that my intentions may be seen as dumb or worthless yet, have done so either here or on another forum?

So far I have all inclusive 1946-1964 Cadillac frames but it doesn't stop there as I am also starting on the Pre War cars too.  And not just Cadillac but all makes.  That is all makes of cars that have X-Frames.   There are limitations though as during those years some makes only used the X bracing on their convertible models and those are the ones to be featured on a website I am developing.  One that restorers can use as a central database so they can see them, have dimensions at hand, know if there are interchangeable ones (as my question suggested), and all for free.  Only contributions will be taken but you will need to register for free to be able to access the database and see larger scale copies of the charts.  And that is all there will be on the site, frames.  Photographs either found or provided by subscribers, the charts, artist renderings, and the history behind them.  I even have US Patent pages to post such as the patent for the very first X frame used on the 1929 Cord L29 or the first tubular X-Frames used on the 1957 Cadillac.

This has been... lets say... an obsession of mine that stems back some 50+ years when I was a child and have been interested in cars but for some odd reason more so in the X-Frame.  (I spent over 20 years working in various automotive industry fields but changed careers when Muscular Dystrophy took over)

So my motives are honorable... but will people here understand them and support my effort?

Didn't someone also mentioned posting the 1936 or 1938 Cadillac 60 series frame for me since it is different that the larger series frame?

Yes, I have spent a lot of time and money myself on this project but when there are people who own shop manuals, mostly now sitting around collecting dust, just seeking a single or two pages from them for this project rather than buy an entire  book for just that.  Sharing - the basic principal of forums as I am willing to share with others if asked.

Thanks all!

Eric Huffstutler
Richmond, VA
Eric Huffstutler

markl

Eric,
Well an interesting and detailed answer!  I will get the information that applies to the 37 models to you today, and again, perhaps someone w/ a 38 that has used this same manual can comment on the issue of whether or not the 37 and 38 year models are identical.

In general, you will note that the 50 series (Lasalle) and the 60 series (small cadillac) are on the same frame.  The info from the 37 manual covers all series Cadillac and LaSalle frames of that year, and as I have noted, perhaps the 38 models or "Series" as the manual refers to them.

Mark Lowery, CLC#25216

Huffstutler

Mark (markl)  was good enough to send me scans of his 1937 shop manual so...

We know this...  the 1934-1935 frame is the same and taken from the 1933 Buick design.  The 1936-1937 frame is the same.  The 1939-1940 is the same so that leaves 1938...

How does this fit in?  Is is a 1937 or a 1939 frame design?   Does anyone have scans of it for us to tell or even a page from the 1938 sales brochure that shows the frame sketch for the 75 series as well as 60 series??

Thanks!
Eric Huffstutler

Doug Houston

By 1939 or so, none of the GM divisions' frames bore much resemblence to each other, because, for instance, Buick, Oldsmobile and Pontiac  had all coil suspensions, and each frame differed from the other .

Some time in the near future, an article that I wrote for the CCCA Michigan publication, about the early 1941 convertible frames and insufficient reinorcement, should appear in the Self-Starter.  It appears that Buick and Olds had no problems, but Cadillac did. Steve Stewart has the article,so it may appear soon.
38-6019S
38-9039
39-9057B
41-6227D
41-6019SF
41-6229D
41-6267D
56-6267
70-DeV Conv
41-Chev 41-1167
41 Olds 41-3929

william_b_noble

I have the manuals and some microfiche for 36, so if no one else provides the data, send me a message.  I am quite positive that the series 60, which I have, is identical to Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Buick - I'm rebuilding the body using wood parts made from Olds patterns
Bill N - clc # 2371

Huffstutler

Quote from: Doug Houston #2257 on August 27, 2010, 12:06:39 AM
By 1939 or so, none of the GM divisions' frames bore much resemblence to each other, because, for instance, Buick, Oldsmobile and Pontiac  had all coil suspensions, and each frame differed from the other .

Doug, so true but it appears that they also didn't resemble each other all along.  Cadillac didn't adopt the X-frame design until 1934 and it was from the same 1933 Buick design.  But having most all the cars from 1946-1964 I can say that even towards the end of the use of X frames, they usually carried them over for an average of 3 years.  Some makes like Buick were notorious about changing from year to year even minor things - almost like a proving ground.  Trying to establish what Oldsmobile did  is a little tougher since they didn't use very detailed frame charts in their manuals.

Eric Huffstutler

Huffstutler

I posted this answer in another thread but since more people are reading this one than the other, posting the results here too.

OK... here we go.  Brad I. was kind enough to scan all of the manuals from 1936-1942 for me and we now have a more "basic" answer to the puzzle about the 1938 frame. 

From what I know right now, the 1934-1935 frame is identical and one style for all models.  It was borrowed from the 1933 Buick.

For 1936, the series 50 and 60 frame was added but different in design than the following 1937 model.  The Series 70, 75, 80, and 85 frame was the same between 1936-1937 except for a few body and running board mount bracket location changes and the front edge of the side rails by the front bumper were longer and a radiator mount added.  Basic welded frame is the same between years.

In 1937 there was 2 style frames, one for the 50 and 60 series and one for the 65 and 70 series as seen in the above earlier attachment provided by Mark.

For 1938, there was a bit of a curve thrown in with a 3rd style frame.  The frame for the 50 and 60 series stayed the same except for a minor front bumper area change.  The frame for the 65 and 70 series stayed the same except the addition of new motor mount members on the side rails.  There was a new 60S series frame added for 1938.

In 1939 the series 50 and 61 frame was changed / new and the 60S stayed the same as did the 75 and 90 series. 

For 1940, there was only one basic frame design for all series and that was the 60S series frame from 1938-1939

For 1941, there was still only one frame design but completely changed once more and carried over until 1947.

So, answering the question is the 1938 frame a 1937 or a 1939 wasn't so cut and dry.  But a short answer would be the two basic frames for 1938 were 1937 carryovers with some minor changes and a new 3rd one added.

Eric

Eric Huffstutler