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Check engine lights and other observations sort of in a rant format

Started by TJ Hopland, September 02, 2010, 01:33:43 PM

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TJ Hopland

By about 1985 every car and light truck had some sort of on board diagnostics and a check engine light.  That means we are talking about one generation for sure and likely 2 that have now grown up with this crazy technology not to mention growing up with many computer like machines.   When I am bored I poke around other automotive related websites in hopes of helping some people that are trying to understand their cars.  I get the people that just know gas goes in the back, right pedal is go, left pedal is stop and the stereo and cup holders are in the middle.  There is a lot of people like that where a car is just transportation and that is fine with me if they choose not to understand anything and just take it in and pay when there is a problem. What I just cant understand is those people that are trying to work on their own cars and are throwing parts at their cars because the check engine light is on and they have no idea what the code is.  They just read that 02 and MAF sensors turn the light on so they replace them.  My favorite is a new gas cap.  I have never actually heard of the gas cap being the problem.  Yes they leave it off or dont get it on tight it will trip a code but I dont think I have ever heard of an evap issue that was the cap if it was on correctly.  Its usually the canister purge filter being full of crap since they seem to like to locate it behind the rear wheels.  At least a gas cap is cheap and easy.  MAP and O2 are not cheap and sometimes are not easy.   Its especially dumb to be because at least 50% of parts stores now will read codes for free or loan you the tool for free.  Several makes and models can do a self scan (like cadillac has been able to do since 1980).  Heck you can even buy a scan tool for $50 now.     I just dont get it.   I suppose if they did read the code they would still mess up because they dont understand that the code could be the result of a problem not the cause like a rich 02 reading has about a 0.00005% chance of being a bad 02 sensor.  Then there is still the just disconnect the battery.  That has not worked since 1995.  If it did work it was just luck and the light would have turned off anyway the next time you turned the key on even if you did not unhook the battery. 

With all the hot weather around the country lately I also wonder how many people have blown up working on their car air conditioners.  I now think I know enough that I could work on the systems without too much damage if I had all the proper tools and equipment but even on the used market that stuff is expensive.  I have read about people putting in 4 cans w/ stop leak and all the other crap that comes in most of the DIY stuff after they had the system open to change a compressor.  Apparently they had done it that way before and it worked?   I guess I dont understand systems as well as I thought because I did not know that was even possible. 

It sort of reminds me of the story that runs around IT circles.  Person is working tech support for a computer company and a customer calls in saying that their computer is not working.   They go through the usual check list and the tech is starting to think there may be a real issue so he asks the customer to check the power cord going into the back of the computer.  They say they cant see it because its too dark in the room.  The tech asks if they can turn on a light.  They reply no they cant because the electricity is out.   The tech then asks if they still have the box the computer came in and tells them to pack it up and send it back because they are to dumb to own a computer.     

You then have admire (and think back to your youth) the kids out there that have the big dreams for the 4 door crap box they are driving asking how they can put in a 350 Chev or 5.0 Ford and when they find out how that is seriously impractical how they can just get more power out of what they have which is usually about the most bare bones option that was offered.    An older guy I work with tells me stories of his youth when his dad finally got a newer family car and gave him the 40 4 door Cadillac that was pretty beat and uncool but had that big V8 in it.  His buddy had a Ford Model A that I imagine by the time was perhaps sort retro so perhaps cool?  They also figured out that the model A was much lighter than the Cad so with the Cad motor it would be much faster.   I guess they got as far as tearing apart both cars and figured out they did not have the skills to go any further.   The model A motor is still in the shed of one of his properties. 

When did 4 door cars become cool?  When I was in high school if all you had to drive was a 4 door you rode with friends or walked.  Only exceptions were if the 4 door was really unique like a Caddy or Lincoln that had power everything (think of the Jeff Foxworthy bit about 'opening left rear bomb bay doors' so his buddies could moon someone) or you were the first and only one in the group with a license and car.   It did not matter how big a pile of crap you had, if it was a 2 door it was at least somewhat cool.   Somehow that seems to have changed.  People seem happy and cool driving the typical dime a dozen 4 door econo boxes.  I even see kids in mini vans that appear to be cool.   In high school I had the classic family wagon complete with the wood sides.  Reason I got away with it was we could get like 20 kids in it and I had what at the time was huge speakers in the back hooked up to a tape deck.  I think they were big sears home speakers I got at a garage sale but hey no one else had room for anything like that and most did not even have a tape deck.  It was also sort of fun because I had a 455 and could run with the Cameros, Firebirds, and Mustangs that were the real cool cars at the time.   
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Otto Skorzeny

When did 4 door cars become cool?  I didn't think they had. There just aren't any 2 door family cars made anymore so there aren't any to be handed down to the kids in school or even any to buy second hand. The coupes available are tiny $hitboxes that are even less practical than their 4 door counterparts. The backseats are more like those in sports cars rather than sedans. As long as your getting a tiny car you might as well get a 4 door with a somewhat usable backseat.

fward

Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for YOURSELF

HUGE VENDOR LIST CLICK HERE

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

TJ,
four doors are not and never have been "cool".   I think the fact that Cadillac is coming out with a "deville" coupe next year bears that out.  In good economic times when all you had to do was refinance your house to buy a new car, obsolescence did not matter. "The ash tray is full, time to get another car". The electronic component of the current crop of vehicles accounts for (I believe the actual figure) 35% of the cost of the vehicle, and rising.  It is no longer transportation but a disposable consumer product.  Perhaps the current economic conditions might be helpful for those of us that actually want something for our money.
Otherwise, I have a stable of 5 cars that I probably will keep in operation for the balance of my lifetime.
Greg
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

Greg Powers

I had both a 2000 Deville and a 2001 DTS with the now infamous Northstar engine and between the oil consumption and the electronic issues I sold both and bought a 1990 Brougham with a good old fashion 5.7 engine. Though still a little tainted by computers, not nearly the nightmare of the newer vehicles.  The problem with the check engine light and multitude of sensors on the new Cadillacs is that as you have said, nothing is what it seems to be. The problem code shown may be a symptom not the source, and the source could always be a faulty computer control module.  Electronic parts are not refundable and usually highly vehicle specific so it can get quite costly for the "do-it-yourselfer". The other problem you haven't touched upon are the "self-opening" power windows that can drop at anytime. A small plastic clip breaks and you have to replace window motor and regulator to repair. I too will keep my Cadillacs of the 1950s and 1960s ready to go. It's so nice to know that when i turn on the A/C or roll down a window or shift gears, no computer assist necessary. Even if they built anything worth preserving today, the electronic parts would be obsolete and unavailable to keep them drivable. I'll just keep on "Driving Miss Daisy" - Greg
G.L. Powers>1954 Series 62 Sedan/1958 Fleetwood 60 Special-sold/1963 Series 62 Convertible-sold/1970 Fleetwood Brougham-sold/1994 Fleetwood Brougham/1971 Sedan Deville-sold/2000 Deville-sold/2001 DTS-sold/1976 Eldorado Convertible-sold/1983 Coupe Deville-sold/1990 Allante-sold/1990 and 1991 Brougham deElegance-sold/1992 Brougham-sold/Always looking!

The Tassie Devil(le)

The trouble these days is that the car makers are in it for the money, and not the style.   They want to make more of what actually sells to customers than what the few "Car People" actually want to buy.

Where I live, any 2 door car is a lot more expensive than the 4 door variant, and has been since Moses was a boy.   Take the Holden Commodore and the Holden Monaro (new Pontiac GTO).   These cars use the same drive train, floor pan, suspension, interior (apart from the seating to accommodate the doors) front, etc.   Yet, the cost is such that only the rich can buy the Monaro, and only to the first limited number of buyers.   Yes, they refused to make lots of them, as the 4 door variant was easier to make, and therefore better profit, even though there was more parts required.

Bruce. >:D

PS.   Sorry I couldn't bring Cadillac into the argument but we never got Cadillacs sold here since 1942, in RHD form, and the rich people only wanted 4 door cars.  
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

bill henry

If it still runs ok I just put a piece of electrical tape over it. My wifes 89 mercury grand marqius ran the last 9 years we had it with the check engine light on!
Bill Henry

Steve W

Yeah...4 doors just ain't cool....but take a look at the prices on , say, a 4 door 55 Chevy 210...what??? When all the coupes are demanding astronomical $$, the 4 doors start going up too. Not getting the same $s as coupes...but bringing a lot more than what they should be going for.

And here's something else...remember, if you HAD to have a 4 door...you could at least get a 4 door HARDTOP??? A 4 door without that huge pillar between the doors. I was looking around..they don't make hardtops anymore!
Steve Waddington
1968 Coupe deVille
North Hollywood, CA
CLC Member # 32866

Otto Skorzeny

Mercedes makes a 4 door hardtop amnd I've seen at least one 2 door hardtop. I think the s door was a BMW but may have been a Merc.
fward

Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for YOURSELF

HUGE VENDOR LIST CLICK HERE

mrspeedyt

imo....for many people 4 door cars became accepted and no longer 'uncool' about 20 years ago.... with the increasing popularity of the japanese cars...and the big cab pickups.
s. twitchell

Glen

One of the biggest problems with new cars for the DIY is the shop manual is not anything like the old ones.  I have a 2003 S10 pickup.  I paid $150 for a new shop manual from Helms.  It comes in three volumes and a combined thickness of 5 inches.  Sounds great right?  There is nothing in that book to tell me how anything works.  There is wiring diagrams; voltages and resistances and instructions on how to remove and install parts but nothing on how it works. 

Most of what I know comes from a book I bought from Checkers.  It’s about OBDII computer systems. 

The computer on OBDII compliant cars run what is called monitors to check if everything is OK.  A basic monitor is the misfire detector.  It monitors the acceleration/deceleration of the engine as the cylinders fire.  A misfire is detected by a deceleration when it should accelerate after the cylinder fires. 

Another of the monitors is the evap monitor.  Depending on the vehicle it may pressurize the evaporation control system or it may pull a vacuum.  It then monitors the leak down to see if there are any leaks.  If the gas cap is loose the system leaks down too fast and sets the MIL (Malfunction Indicator Lamp). 

One of the things checked by the scan tool is to see if all the monitors have run.  If there are any that did not run the car can fail the emissions check in some states. 

My S10 has not run the Evap monitor.  Normally the reason is a prerequisite monitor has not run.  There is no place in the 5 inches of manual that tells me what prevents the evap monitor from running.  So now what do I do? 

My brother told me of another problem he heard of.  The MIL came on and the trouble code said the knock sensor was bad.  So the sensor was changed.  Not once but three times because the trouble code kept coming back.  It was later discovered that the way the computer checks the knock sensor is to advance the timing until the engine knocks, then it returns to normal.     The problem with this car was the base timing was retarded and the computer could not advance the timing to a point the engine would knock, so it determined the sensor was bad. 

To top it all off the Tech 2 tool the dealer uses does considerably more than the scan tools you buy from the parts stores.   I found a GM Tech 2 scan tool for the sale price $3000.  No, I did not buy it. 

Glen


Glen Houlton CLC #727 
CLCMRC benefactor #104

Otto Skorzeny

That is just one reason I won't buy a car made after '72 or a truck made after '79.
fward

Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for YOURSELF

HUGE VENDOR LIST CLICK HERE

35-709

1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

The Tassie Devil(le)

The reason I don't buy a new car is because I can't afford the repayments.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

mrspeedyt

i can't afford any longer to buy new cars... so it is time to start properly repairing and rebuilding my older ones. thats why i'm trying to get my '62 back on the road. besides it is a cool car... remember when fins were so out of date... and you would be so embarrassed to be seen by your friends... now it's cool. ;D
s. twitchell