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WEIRD car failure at 60mph... (UPADATED WITH PHOTOS!!)

Started by Rick Biarritz, March 21, 2011, 10:21:05 AM

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Rick Biarritz

Hell, Gang:

The Caddy’s (83 Eldo, with the 4.1) been trouble free all winter, but this morning I had a real heart-stopper.  This is a weird one, but I know you guys (Miller, Mike, cough, cough) can handle it.  Driving down the road at about 60mph, and the first symptom I noticed was a loud buzzing coming through the radio as I gave the car gas.  The more I leaned on the pedal, the louder the buzz got.  Let off the pedal entirely, and the buzzing stopped instantly.  Then the heater/ac panel went completely blank.  She was still blowing hot air, but I could not turn it off, turn it down, or turn it up, and the display was still blank.  I tried to crack the window cause I was getting hot.  I heard the motor working, but the window would not move.  Then the car started sputtering and dying, speed rapidly dropping down to 10 mph.  I kept giving it gas, and after a good 30 seconds of slowly creeping down the highway at 10mph, she woke up and EVERYTHING was back in working order, heat, windows, speed, radio, display, etc.  

So, boys, what’s the word?  

Thanks,
Robert Ould

okccadman

Sounds like my 91 when it had a loose battery cable.
Jim Jordan CLC# 5374
Oklahoma City, OK

55 Series 62 Sedan
56 Series 62 Coupe
56 Fleetwood 75 Derham Limo
59 Fleetwood Sixty Special
66 Fleetwood Brougham
66 Superior Hearse/Ambulance
67 Fleetwood Sixty Special
68 Fleetwood Eldorado
76 Coupe de Ville d'Elegance
90 Brougham
92 Fleetwood Coupe
93 Allante
94 Fleetwood Brougham
02 Eldorado Commemorative Edition

Rick Biarritz

I'm a bit of a novice, (okay a HUGE novice) but could a lose BC really do all that?  God, I hope that's it.

TJ Hopland

I would first be going after battery related cables and connections.   Were they using that double stack positive then?  That is a good place for issues like that if it has that.   If that is all good I would then be looking at other major ground and power distribution areas.
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Jim Sparrow

Yup, I vote for a loose battery cable or anothe loose wire at the starter. HTH    -Jim

R Schroeder

OR bad battery ? Dead or dying cell maybe ?

Rick Biarritz

Okay, the car did it again last week.  This time there was NO rain, so I'm thinking water has nothing to do with it. Today, I go out, turn the key and get nothing but a click.  Using a battery charger and a volt-meter, I'm pretty sure the battery is fully charged.  This leaves me with what you guys said - a major ground not hooked up right.  I've looked at battery cables, alt. hook up, starter hook-up, and I can't seem to find anything. I'm about to undo and clean all the battery hook ups, but check out these pics.  They look really clean to me. Am I wrong? Can you even tell just by looking? 

Thanks,
Robert Ould




Mike Josephic CLC #3877

Well, at least you don't have that troublesome double positive cable that was
mentioned earlier.

No -- you can't tell if their clean just by looking.  The corrosion builds up between
the red cable and the battery (where you screw the cable in).  You have to remove
the cable to see that.  I suggest you remove both cables, wire brush them and
the mating surface on the battery, then reinstall them as a start.

How old is that battery? 

BTW, what is that picture of in the 3rd panel?  I can't tell from the pic.  Looks like
some splicing was done and doesn't look factory to me (I could be wrong, but looks
funny to me).

Mike
1955 Cadillac Eldorado
1973 Cadillac Eldorado
1995 Cadillac Seville
2004 Escalade
1997 GMC Suburban 4X4, 454 engine, 3/4 ton
custom built by Santa Fe in Evansville, IN
2011 Buick Lucerne CX
-------------------------------------
CLCMRC Museum Benefactor #38
Past: VP International Affiliates, Museum Board Director, President / Director Pittsburgh Region

Rick Biarritz

The 3rd pic is where a wire runs from the positive cable over to the little red box.  The box has a big + sign on it.  I just jumped the car, and it ran very weak for about 30 seconds before shutting off.  It was acting crazy, too.  A/C blowing, could not turn it off, no temp display, no outside temp display, could not adjust the blower speed, etc.  Car just totally freaking out.  Surely there's not too much that could cause this?  The battery is old. Could that be the problem?

Thanks
Robert Ould

Classic

When the engine is running, won't the alternator keep the engine running even if the battery is dead or even disconnected?  Sounds like a loose connection some where between the battery/alternator and the rest of the car.  If you think it's the battery, can you borrow a known good one and try it to see what happens?
Gene Menne
CLC #474

Rick Biarritz

That was one of the theories.  I checked connections once but I'll have to do it again. I'm a novice, so I could easily miss something.  The two hookups that are on the back of alternator itself seem quite tight.  I could get another battery from one of my other cars, but the Eldo has those funny screw-in posts on the side of the battery. Not sure how I could hook up a "normal" battery. 

Wayne Womble 12210

Look for the fusible links, usually near the starter positive post. 

The Tassie Devil(le)

An Alternator will not keep an engine running if the battery is flat, as the Alternator requires a proper current to excite it.

A Generator will keep an engine running with a flat battery as the Generator will charge a flat battery because it doesn't require an outside current to make it work.

I would be having the battery checked, as well as the terminals cleaned.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

Classic

Bruce, I thought modern automotive alternators were brushless, one-wire, self-exciting.  I know they are on medium and heavy duty trucks and buses.  Correct me if I'm wrong.  Rick's '83 Eldo may be different.
Gene Menne
CLC #474

Philippe M. Ruel

Most all-terrain race motorcycles have an alternator and NO battery AT ALL because they happen to get upside down. And their engines run damn good...


I wonder about the third picture : the self-locking ("Nylstop") nut on battery positive post surely won't unscrew, but won't be of any use as far as electricity is concerned. Nylon insulates it from the post, the contact point being only at post base. Did Cadillac people back then really put Nylstop nuts on battery posts ? :o
1952 60 Special in France.

Glen

The nylon in the nut is only on the top of the nut.  There is still plenty of metal to metal contact there.  But the current does not need the nut because it flows from lug to lug.  It does need a tight connection though. 

The post in photo three is the main battery source for every thing except the starter.  This is likely near the under hood fuse block. 

This is kind of a puzzle; I would start by checking the battery voltage at the battery terminals when under load.  Meaning with the starter engaged if possible.  If not then turn on the head lights.  The battery should be greater than 9 volts.  If not then you may need a new battery.  Putting a charger on this old battery may save it but may not.   

Also check voltages with one meter lead on the negative battery terminal and the other on other locations as needed, such as the post shown in photo three.  Check battery voltage with one lead on the positive terminal and the other on say the engine block to check the ground cable.   
Glen Houlton CLC #727 
CLCMRC benefactor #104

Roger Zimmermann

When I was a DSM for GM, we had from time to time a car which would run badly. Many parts were replaced for nothing. I remember about one case; at the end, it was the stud near the starting motor: according to a service bulletin, the stud had to be removed, the threads in the block cleaned and the stud reinstalled. The problem was effectively solved.
Unfortunately, I don't remember on which engine this happened; it could be the 4.1 liter.
If nothing else is helping, I would check the grounds to the engine. Aluminum block and steel studs can do strange things.

Roger
1956 Sedan de Ville (sold)
1956 Eldorado Biarritz
1957 Eldorado Brougham (sold)
1972 Coupe de Ville
2011 DTS
CLCMRC benefactor #101

76eldo

At the very least, you need to test the system with a volt meter.  A bad or shorted cell in the battery could do this, I had the same thing happen to me 2 years ago on vacation with a Dodge minivan.  It would start and run if on jumpers, but would die as soon as you remove the jumper cables from a 2nd vehicle.  It was a 1 year old battery that went bad.

Volt meters are cheap and very useful to have in your tool box.  Measure the battery voltage.  A healthy battery should read at least 12 volts at the battery terminals.  With the car running it should read 13.5 to 14 volts.  If either one is 2 volts or more less, you need a new battery, or alternator.  The car should run on the alternator only once started, but don't try that too much as the varying voltages can spike your computer.

Once you rule out voltage as your issue, check fuel pressure and flow.

Also check the bulkhead connector on the engine side of the firewall as mentioned in the HT4100 forum.

Good luck,

Brian
Brian Rachlin
Huntingdon Valley, Pa
I prefer email's not PM's rachlin@comcast.net

1960 62 Series Conv with Factory Tri Power
1970 DeVille Conv
1970 Eldo
1970 Caribu (?) "The Cadmino"
1973 Eldorado Conv Pace Car
1976 Eldorado Conv
1980 Eldorado H & E Conv
1993 Allante with Hardtop (X2)
2008 DTS
2012 CTS Coupe
2017 XT
1956 Thunderbird
1966 Olds Toronado

Rick Biarritz

Well, I took the easy way out.  I didn't think it was the battery, but enough people said it might be, so I took it to Advance, and they tested it, and (Thank God) said it was bad.  Bought a new one, stuck it in, and EVERYTHING seems to be working just fine.  

As always, thank you all.  

Robert Ould

Mike Josephic CLC #3877

#19
Hey Rick:

Glad we were able to help and that it was something simple.

Moral of this story is to start checking the most obvious, simple things first.
Failing that, then get into the more esoteric parts of the system.

Good luck to you on your car!

Mike
1955 Cadillac Eldorado
1973 Cadillac Eldorado
1995 Cadillac Seville
2004 Escalade
1997 GMC Suburban 4X4, 454 engine, 3/4 ton
custom built by Santa Fe in Evansville, IN
2011 Buick Lucerne CX
-------------------------------------
CLCMRC Museum Benefactor #38
Past: VP International Affiliates, Museum Board Director, President / Director Pittsburgh Region