Carpet - 1940 60S

[pauldridge]

I recently purchased a front and rear carpet set from Kanter.  For the price I certainly wasn't expecting perfection, but I was surprised to find a gap between the front carpet and rear carpet along the side of the front seat, about 18" or so.  I emailed Kanter about it and they said that's the way they were made originally?  I just can't imagine that Cadillac would have left that visible gap (per photo below... aluminum sill still not re-installed)

Has anyone had first-hand experience with original carpeting?

[Don Boshara #594]

Fits like a shirt on a shovel. This is what Hampton Coach sold me. I don't know how accurate it is but it sure fits better.

[pauldridge]

Well put!

Thanks for letting me know I got the old royal end-run from Kanter.

You were probably smart to go with Hampton for the carpet.  Unfortunately, I didn't discover them until after I had bought carpet and headliner from Kanter (still waiting to see if I got shafted in on the headliner.

I actually just shelled out some 4 grand plus for leather/cloth seats and side panels from Hampton... well, LeBaron-Bonney,  you can just tell these guys are high quality. 

I wasn't expecting the moon from Kanter at the price, guess I got what I paid for.  I haven't completed the installation, just laid the carpet in at this point, will clean up the under pad, etc.  For the money I guess I can complain.. the rest of the carpet is a pretty decent fit, and it does have binding around the edges. 

I'll be using my car as a second addition to my classic limousine service here in Austin  ( www.AustinClassicLimo.com ) and figured the carpeting would take a bit of a beating, so I can always replace it with another cheap copy when it wears out.  I paid some $1,300 for a bespoke carpet job in my '51 Hudson Hornet at a local shop, granted nice European square weave material, so I was looking to go the other direction this time!

I'm thinking about polishing up a piece of 1/16" aluminum plate and installing it in the gap.  Certainly not OEM, but should look attractive.

[Alan Harris CLC#1513]

I am not 100% sure that Kanter is wrong. I have never taken a close look at an original 1940 60 Special. However, I have seen original unrestored 62 and 52 series cars.

The front carpet was not a carpet at all. It was a rubber mat with carpet inserts. In the area that you show next to the seat, there is no carpet or mat. The aluminum sill plate extends as far as the seat frame and is completely exposed.

Over the years, most of these card have been changed to carpeting which is "wall to wall"

There must be someone around with an original 40-60S. It would be interesting to find out how they actually were.

[Chris Davis]

As the 60S was marketed as a unique high end Cadillac it seems odd that it would have a gap or rubber matting.

I don't have any specific knowledge about the 1940 60s, but my 1941 60S has the full carpet without the gaps shown underneath the front seat.  In my case I am quite certain it is the original factory installed carpet. 

[Fred Zwicker #23106]

Here is an early ad showing the correct correct front floor mat for all 1939 LaSalles - few have the correct carpet, which is actually a brown rubber floor mat with 4 carpet inserts.  Rear is carpet.

Fred

[Terry Wenger]

The front and rear of a '40-60S and a '39-60S is all carpeting with no rubber mat. See pages V-11, V-12 and V-13 of the Class 10 ('39 and '40 Cadillac)  Rubber matting was used in combination with carpeting in the 61,62 and 72 series cars.

Terry Wenger

[las39]

This thread is getting intresting. As far as I can understand there are two claims that it was a rubbermat with carpet insert. What bout the original question regarding the gap? Any pics of old unrestored cars?

[Don Boshara #594]

My '40 60S had what was left of the original carpet & it was carpet in front with what looked like a leather heel insert.

[Fred Zwicker #23106]

This thread is getting intresting. As far as I can understand there are two claims that it was a rubbermat with carpet insert. What bout the original question regarding the gap? Any pics of old unrestored cars?

I did a lot of research on this, and for my car ('39 LaSalle Convertible) determined that the front mat was originally a brown rubber with carpet inserts.  Rear was carpet only  Figuring that rubber mats were to be removed and also based on the size of the brown rubber mat that I purchased from Bob's Automobilia in CA, I had the front rubber mat slightly overlap the aluminum sill plate.  For the rear floor covering, since it was all carpet, I tucked the carpet under the aluminum side plate.  My car was judged a first prize senior at the 2008 Cherry Hill, NJ Grand Nationals.

First picture shows how I handled the front mat in my car.

Prior to realizing that front mat for my car was to be rubber, I installed the front and rear carpet as shown in second picture, tucking the unfinished ends of the carpet under the aluminum side plate.  At that time, I had installed all red carpet, instead of the correct rubber mat with brown inserts and rear carpet to match the inserts.  So for cars that had all carpet, that might be a good option, although I do not know how it was originally done at the factory.  It seems that this would be the only way to conceal the open ends of the front and rear carpet.

Fred

[Don Boshara #594]

Fred,
Your convertible is a beautiful LaSalle, and a LaSalle was a Cadillac in many ways, but it was not a Cadillac Fleetwood 60 Special.

[Fred Zwicker #23106]

Don - i just checked Pauldridge's two posts and he did not mention what year, make or model of car that he has, other than the first post where he mentioned that he could not imagine Cadillac leaving a visible gap.  Later posts mentioned Cadlllacs with front and rear carpet and also front rubber mat and rear carpet, depending on the model. That is the reason I posted pictures of both setups, including the second picture showing front and rear carpet.  So if certain model Cadillacs had carpet front and rear, it is possible, but not necessarily probable, that the carpet treatment was similar to this second picture.

Can you post some pictures of the same area of your 1940 60S?  We need to see how the unfinished (or maybe finished) edges of the front and rear carpet was handled by Cadillac on the outside edges of your car.  We are all trying to figure this out and any information and/or pictures of Cadillacs and LaSalles of that era might help. This might clarify the gap issue for the original poster and others. Also Pauldridge may want to post the year and model of his car so that more exact information can be furnished.

Fred

[Don Boshara #594]

Paul's first post is headed "Carpet - 1940 60S." My post of Aug 30 shows the outside edge of carpet as I received it from Hampton Coach. It seems pretty much the same as the scraps of what I'm quite certain was the original carpet.

[pauldridge]

Thanks to Fred's pictures of that beautiful LaSalle... wish I could see the rest of the car.

The transitional sill plate covering the front and rear carpet is intriguing.  Of course, my 60S (YES, it IS a 1940 60S) doesn't have that extension on the sill plate, but I'm going to go with that idea and fabricate an aluminum plate to cover the two ends of the carpeting.. Of course it won't have the embossed pattern, but I can polish it up so that it will enhance the look.

I'm already regretting trying to "cheap out" on the carpeting set.  Another couple of hundred bucks and I could have had a good Hampton/LeBaron Bonney set... Now I'll almost certainly eventually have that expense in addition to what I paid for the Kanter carpet.

[las39]

These sills where offered on eBay by All Cadillacs of the Forties and Fifties and they had for all body types.
Item number:   250694102186

"Complete your restore with these beautiful examples of american craftsmanship. HAND MADE IN THE U.S.A. Call us at ALL CADS 800-808-1147 with any questions Stored since purchase in weather-protected, dry, rust and mildew-free Nevada warehouse with thousands of parts from vintage 1940's and 1950's Cadillacs. Very hard to find with chrome in brand new condition"
[/img]

http://stores.ebay.com/All-Cadillacs-of-the-40s-and-50s?_trksid=p4340.l2563

[Brad Ipsen CLC #737]

These door sills can be purchased from the source at: DoorSills, 31 Graham Ave. North Haledon, NJ 07508 Ph. 973-423-1196.  They are significantly cheaper than the resellers but the delivery is 6 to 8 months.  The 40-60S does not have the inset panel like the 40-52/62.

[Brett Baird]

Phil,

I have never been happy with the fit of the carpet I bought from Kanter for my '41 60 Special.  With that said,  when I  informed them that the fit was so poor that they should look into their pattern, as it was obviously not for a 1941 Cadillac 60 Special, they offered to refund my money IF the carpet was in NEW condition.  Since I had already cut the hole for the dimmer switch, that wasn't an option.  .You mentioned you haven't installed it yet, but just "laid it out".  You could contact them for a refund.

[Fred Zwicker #23106]

I think a good trim shop could install custom carpetting with a perfect fit.  You can buy carpet by the yard - be sure to get the correct type and color for your car. Bill Hirsch sells carpet, binding and leather and Hampton and others also sell carpet by the yard, or possibly a complete carpet set that fits properly.  I am lucky as I do my own carpet and spend plenty of time to get a perfect fit. Inside corners and along the edges are the most difficult parts.  I was at one time in the drycleaning business and we specialized in tailoring and leather work, so I have the experience and most important - retained the proper leather-sewing machines that can handle heavy carpet and upholstery. I do all of my carpet and most upholstery work, but not a convertible top or headliner.

When I had my convertible top installed on my restored '39 LaSalle it was an "off-the-shelf" top and was installed by a good trim shop, who tried, but couldn't make a bad-fitting top look like it should.  I scrapped the new top and took it to Jim Roll in New Philadelphia, Ohio.  Jim (now deceased) made a perfect top that looks, fits and is better than the original.  Since Jim died, his son Jan is doing just fine and can handle carpet, upholstery or tops.  Tailored Trim is the company name - Phone 330-343-6835.

Fred

[Bill Podany #19567]

I think Fred has the correct answer, and Bil Hirsch (1-800-828-2061) has the best carpeting available by the yard, and then have a custom upholster trim and fit what needs to be done.  I suggest buying a top of the line all wool plush carpeting, and then edging with full matching leather.  This is an elegant and lasting look.  If one is looking for a pre-fit kit of high quality, I strongly suggest Lewis Jenkins in N. Wilksboro, NC at 336-667-4282; he and his son know these vintage Cadillac's and they have outfitted most of the top award winners over the years for Cadillac's and Buick's.   Both operations are first class and responsible to your individual needs. 

Bill Podany
Knoxville, TN
41 60 Special

[Fred Zwicker #23106]

I am restoring a Series 75 Cadillac Fleetwood 4 dr. Convertible and a friend of mine was a retired engineer from GM and very knowledgeable.  In looking at my car, he mentioned that he thought the front carpet should be brown (taupe) rubber with hogs hair insert panels (instead of carpet in front and rear).  I recall that when restoring my 1939 LaSalle convertible coupe in 2007 or 2008, this came up.  Here is what I posted on this forum back in 2011 regarding the LaSalle front mat:

I did a lot of research on this, and for my car ('39 LaSalle Convertible) determined that the front mat was originally a brown rubber with carpet inserts. 

Based on the above information, as well as my friend's recollection, here is my question:

For my 1940 Cadillac Series 75 Convertible, should the front floor mat be brown or taupe rubber with hogs hair inserts, similar to my 1939 LaSalle, or should they be the same carpet in front and rear?  If so, any color choice and fabric on the carpet?   My interior is a tan leather and the existing carpet can be seen in attached photos.

Thanks,  Fred