1964/429 Lifter Noise

[oldgoats]

 I've seen some good advice here, so thought I'd give it a try. I have a friend with a 1964 Caddy. He just did a new long block through a local machine shop and installed it. When he started it up, it had bad lifter noise. Someone informed him about priming or soaking to get oil in lifters, so he did that. When I got in on it at this point, all the lifters are pumped to the top and very hard....can't compress them at all by hand. Rockers are tight with no lash at all......but it sounds like they are all loose.  Oil pressure is 30. Noise is consistent with lifter noise, but seems like all of them.  We disconnected everything possible to eliminate possibilities...with a stethoscope, nosiest point is the fuel pump, however, even removed that and ran for 30 seconds....still had the noise......now thinking it was the noisy point because of it's contact with the cam. Hate to take more apart, but it seems too noisy to run. His machinist said to go ahead and run it, but I am not feeling good about the noise. I'm not familiar with the Caddy, so thought I'd ask. I am quite familiar with Chevys.....but the nonadjustable rocker, along with the lifters that seem to stay pumped. Anyway, hoping to find some direction for him. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks....Jim Elmer
 

[Dave Shepherd]

If the lifters were the source of the noise, you would have lash between the rocker tipand the valve. check that first engine running, there are other sources of lifter type noise but advice without hearing it and goinmg thru 

[oldgoats]

Thanks for the reply. We've done a little more looking......and have a few observations that may lead somewhere. One of the things I noticed was that the lifters were not compressed like a Chevy one would be....they were tight, but not in the middle of the travel as you would see typically. I just learned the rebuilder used the existing cam  (said it was within specs and "gave it a light polishing" and reinstalled it. Not sure how many miles were on the cam, but I'm beginning to think a worn cam to start with....then a grind to "clean it up"....regardless of how little, would not be my choice in the first place....and it could take several thousandths out of the lift. May be ok on something adjustable, but maybe put these right on the edge. I'm beginning to think we are looking at a new cam.....and maybe a new machinist. Not sure this is the answer, but it taking us in some direction for now......still looking. I guess checking the lift on a few of them in place would say a lot about the cam.

[Roger Zimmermann]

Jim, recently I did some engine work on my '56 de Ville (replacing the bearings from under) and did not touch the upper engine. For various reasons, I had to turn the crankshaft by hand several times. When the repair was completed, I let start the engine. I had at least 3 or 4 lifters which were making noise. After 10 minutes, the noise disappeared.
I suppose it will be the same in your case: when the oil is getting int the lfters, the noise will go away.
I overhauled years ago a '62 Cadillac engine; even with oil into the lifters, they did a lot of noise when the engine was first started. After 20 minutes, they were silent.

Roger

[Dave Shepherd]

Thanks for the reply. We've done a little more looking......and have a few observations that may lead somewhere. One of the things I noticed was that the lifters were not compressed like a Chevy one would be....they were tight, but not in the middle of the travel as you would see typically. I just learned the rebuilder used the existing cam  (said it was within specs and "gave it a light polishing" and reinstalled it. Not sure how many miles were on the cam, but I'm beginning to think a worn cam to start with....then a grind to "clean it up"....regardless of how little, would not be my choice in the first place....and it could take several thousandths out of the lift. May be ok on something adjustable, but maybe put these right on the edge. I'm beginning to think we are looking at a new cam.....and maybe a new machinist. Not sure this is the answer, but it taking us in some direction for now......still looking. I guess checking the lift on a few of them in place would say a lot about the cam.

No matter what, if the lifters are the source, the lash or gap that results in the noise is transmitted to the rocker to valve clearance, unless something in the valve train is hitting the block like the pushrod slightly bent, but as I said an experienced engine tech should be able to pinpoint this. BTW, for the cam to cause this by being so worn that the hydraulic lifters could not compensate for the lash, you would have very poor performnace and low vacuum. Haul it out to Chestertown, NY to my shop, I will fix it. LOL

[oldgoats]

Thank You. I'll let you know how we did. That's about a 3000 mile trip. I assume you'd have coffee for us? Appreciate the reply...

[Ralph Messina CLC 4937]

This is a suggestion learned from very hard experience. If you changed the timing gear on the cam shaft, check that the bolts do not protrude out of the back of the flange the gear bolts to. Replacement gears have thinner metal center webs. If it does, the bolt will strike the reinforcement ribs on the block when the engine spools up. It produces the same frequency racket as lifters. It took us 5, â€" let me repeat 5 - disassemblies to find it. The scratch marks on the ribs were not obvious to 60 year old eyesight…….The kid in the shop saw it and we never heard the end of “Old Guys”.

HTH,
Ralph

[oldgoats]

Thank You Ralph....That will be a good one to check....Appreciate all the replies!

[oldgoats]

Just to let everyone know, Ralph's suggestion nailed it. That was exactly the problem. Shortened the bolts, reassembled and runs like a Caddy again. Thanks to everyone who replied. What a great program this is and the enthusiasm of the people is amazing. I read other replies for hours and felt like I was in a high level class. What a great way to share experience. Anyone working on these motors should note this solution. I have been doing this a lot of years and had never run into this before, so Ralph saved us days of work and frustration. Much appreciated....I will make sure I pay it forward. Thanks to all of you again!!!
Jim.....oldgoats

[Ralph Messina CLC 4937]

Jim,

I'm glad I could help.

Ralph