modifieds and CLC.Club

[Jessie]

I was going to suggest a modified section in the self-starter but i guess that might be out of the question   thought it would be good, i know a lot more magizines have a separate section for modified/ trucks etc... seems the more they want modifieds  to be a part of them the more seperate we are.  I think alot more members will join if modifieds are not shunned on.
Jessie

[TJ Hopland]

This board does not like change.   Luckily there is Stampie's board.    www.modifiedcadillac.org 

[C.R. Patton II]

Hello

The modified Cadillacs are a fantastic group of machines that are created by very innovative individuals. I appreciate all of them. I find the Cadillac LaSalle Club Board of Directors to be receptive to all members. Evolution only occurs by driving dialogue. Contact your region director and our President Lars Kneller.

[62droptop]

i too agree, there are a lot of modified cars out there
and a lot of them are very nicely done
there werea couple nice ones at this years nats in ohio, a sweet 49 and a 52 i believe,they were absolutely beautifully done cars and i loved seeing them there, original cars can be nice to look at ,but ,when i go to a big show, i prefer not to see the same thing over and over again in a different colour
i like the personalization of cars ,make it so it works for you
my 1962 caddy ragtop is not 100% stock and i dont care if it ever will be, it is used hard and quite often pulls a trailer to the dump,my boat ,another car or whatever else i need to tow with it
it is a great tow vehicle
i would rather it be not stock and used then not used because it is stock and has too many shortcomings to be used reliably or safely
i think everyone needs to remember,there needs to be someone out there to buy their car someday,and if we turn people away with modified cars ,the interest for our cars will get smaller and smaller,therefore making our cars less desireable
due to decreased interest
i think people who think outside of the box are some of the most creative people out there
i think the younger generation is much more accepting to this  modified way of thinking
just my thoughts
w lee

 

[Glen]

While I do agree there is a lot to be said for modifieds; the artistic talent to conceive them; skill to actually put them together and all, but the question I have is why do they have to invade everything?  I sometimes go to a forum on S10 pickups where they have things like a how-to to make your bed tilt, not as a dump bed but sideways, hydraulics to make them jump etc.  So I am not totally against modifieds. 

There is a modified chapter and a modified forum.  Do they really need to be here too?  Can those of us that like the old cars and enjoy the ancient technology that makes them work have a place of our own to discuss the cars and help each other keep them on the road looking like they did when they came out of the factory door without the constant din of the modifieds telling us to put a small block chevy in; convert to disc brakes etc? 

Driving the older cars takes a slightly different skill set then driving a modern car.  If you understand that keep your car properly maintained it will be as safe as a modern car with the exception of major crashes.   But properly maintained and used brakes will stop an old car very well.  The big problem is the loss of knowledge on how to maintain them.  And that is what this forum is for, to spread that knowledge. 

If we can have this forum to ourselves I promise I won’t invade the modified forum and pressure people to keep their cars original. 

[EAM 17806]

GLEN!  I'm in complete agreement with your thoughts.  EAM

[Barry Norman]

Ditto to Glen's comments !

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

That is why a number of us created the Modified Chapter, and the Modified Forum.

But, we still gain information from this "Mother Board".

And one doesn't have to own a Modified Cadillac to be a member of the Modified Chapter, just appreciate them.

Bruce.

[62droptop]

Glen ,i understand what you are saying,i also see the other side of the coin
old cars do drive completely different,but you dont have to accept all the traits most old cars exibit
not wanting to start any great argument or panties in a knot debate here either


i prefer not to have to treat my car different just because it is old, i do not want to have to live with the shortcomings compared to a modern car, and i dont mean cup holders and climate control ,power heated mirrors  and butt warmers in the seats
i like the fact that  i can go out to my  50 yr old 1962 car ,check all the fluids ,fill up the gas tank and head out on the highway for a 3000 mile trip and not have to worry about its deficiencies,or know i can drive it in the local parade because it will  not overheat because i modified the cooling system and added an electric fan etc.
it sounds like there are many of you here that have devieted from original and modified your cars  to improve the reliability/drivability
when my car  still had  its drum brake, they were in excellent working order, everything properly adjusted etc
they did  work well, until you were travelling down the highway at 75mph and there was a sudden gridlock, you can say what you want,but a nearly 5000lb car with 4 drum brakes just is not going to stop as well as the little econobox in front of you that is just about to be shortened a couple of feet!
i drive my car ,a lot, and it is nice to know i can stop at least as well as the worst stopping newer car out there, i think you can never have enough brakes and that is the first thing i address when i get an old car

a modified section here would allow others who would also like to do similiar upgrades a chance to learn from other peoples experience

if you want to chop the roof 6 inches, install it on a 4x4 chevy pic up frame , stick a blower through the hood ,then i agree,this is not the place for it

perhaps it could be more of an upgraded section, not a full out chop,cut section 

i would rather have a car that has been modified to improve its usefullness than have a car that is not so usefull because it has so many limitations

i just dont understand all the resistance to a little change
after all they are all cadillacs, and this is a cadillac club right??

i also believe you are turning away a fair number of grand national participants with the modified cars are not welcome here attitude
there are many people im sure who would pay their money to come to the show and be part of the event with their improved,personalized and modified cars
i believe there should be a peoples choice for that class

lets catch up with the times and welcome all to these great events

i help run a large british car show locally ,and there is a modified class there also and it gets larger every year when people find out they are welcomed,not frowned upon
 

[Dan LeBlanc]

Well said, Mr. Lee.  I'm of the same school - changing a generator for an alternator, or chroming my valve covers because it looks cool and its my little personal touch on the car.  It's a shame that while the car would look original on the outside, because it may be somewhat "customized" under the hood, it would be frowned upon.

Where else will you see a factory ordered Nautilus Blue and Olympic White Fleetwood Sixty Special with special order interior?  It's likely the only one produced in that colour combination.  Frowning upon the car because under the hood would have some modern upgrades (maybe even EFI if the budget permits) would deny people the chance to see a car that wouldn't be seen elsewhere.

[Glen]

Your example of the brakes not being up to par is one of my pet peeves.  My first car was a 61 Coupe DeVille.  I drove it hard and fast, traffic permitting. 

More than once I locked up all four wheels in a hard braking situation.  ABS aside how much more braking do you need?  Can you lock all four wheels and slide to a straight stop?  If not something is wrong.  Unless you install ABS with the disc brakes you will not get better braking than that. 

The problem lies in the knowledge base among those that repair the cars.  In this forum we pass that information along.   Elsewhere you are told those drum brakes never worked well.  That comes from the really old car like my friend’s 1914 Model T with rear brakes only.  He usually puts it in reverse to get extra braking. 

Yes we do discuss minor mods to help keep these cars on the road.  I do recognize that is sometimes a necessity.  But I still think we need a place to discuss keeping them as original as is possible in these days of dwindling parts and loss of people with the knowledge. 

Those who like the modifies can easily hop over to the modified forums, nothing says they can’t be members of both forums. 

[StevenTuck]

Glen,

I agree with you on both your comments. I have all the original systems in my 1962. They all work efficiently. I have driven in long parades without over heating. I have driven on long trips without an electric fuel pump, electric cooling fan or disc brakes.

I believe a lot of the need to alter these cars has been created by those interested in selling their wares. They obviously have convinced many that their old cars just will not work well unless they install their products. Then people buy these systems and convince their friends that they too must have them, peer influence.

I appreciate the modifieds. Some are very well executed. But ultimately the modifieds are created as a result of influence from the media and peers. Plus it is much easier and cheaper to modify a car than restore it to factory specs.

A somewhat related example is how the public was convinced that they had to own a SUV. 95% of the public never needed a SUV. Why would someone in Florida need a 4-wheel drive SUV, the mountainous area of Colorado, yes. The media convinced them that they were nobody and their life would be less without one. And so much of the public bought into it.

I agree that we need to be open to modifieds. That is why there is a forum and chapter for modifieds. But they need to be respectful to us as well. The modified owners are not so innocent. I have been ridiculed by them.

So if your thing is to modify your car then go to it. There is a group and forum for you.

Here we like the challenge of maintaining the originality of our cars.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Your example of the brakes not being up to par is one of my pet peeves.  My first car was a 61 Coupe DeVille.  I drove it hard and fast, traffic permitting. 

More than once I locked up all four wheels in a hard braking situation.  ABS aside how much more braking do you need?  Can you lock all four wheels and slide to a straight stop?  If not something is wrong.  Unless you install ABS with the disc brakes you will not get better braking than that. 

There is nothing wrong with Drum Brakes, and in the first application of Drum Brakes, they perform better than Discs.

But, after a lot of quick applications, Drums are virtually useless.   But, it is up to the driver to know, and realise the deficiencies of Drum Brakes, and drive accordingly.

Nothing worse than fanging it down a mountain and getting Brake Fade.   Especially when the car in front of you is running Discs, or is a Manual Transmission, or a hairpin turn is ahead.......   

Plus, no need for ABS unless you don't know how to drive, but this option is very good when it comes in, whilst you are over-driving the handling of the vehicle ........

Bruce.

[Dan LeBlanc]

Glen,

But ultimately the modifieds are created as a result of influence from the media and peers. Plus it is much easier and cheaper to modify a car than restore it to factory specs.

I wholeheartedly must disagree on both counts here.  Although I prefer to keep my car as close to factory as possible with some minor upgrades for technology, here's why I disagree.

Media and peers usually are the last influences to modify a car.  Most people want to have something that nobody else can have - anybody can go buy a car, make it roadworthy, pretty it up a bit and drive it.  The people who go through the trouble to modify them see the completed result as a work of art and what they started with as an expression of their art form.  It is because of taste and a desire to express themselves that they do it, not because some ad for House of Kolor paint told them it will make their car look cool.

On the second point, it is not much easier and not always cheaper to modify something.  To drop a 500 cu.in. Caddy motor into a 1962 Cadillac requires much more work than to remove, rebuild, and replace the stock 390.  Much pain and fabrication labour goes into executing such an undertaking and, if you cannot do the work yourself, custom fabrication work doesn't come cheap.  Modifying crossmembers to accommodate the larger power plant and preserving structural integrity while making sure components can handle the extra stresses and additional power takes engineering, patience, and time.  Anybody can rebuild and replace a stock carburetor, but not everyone can add EFI and make it work better than the original system it replaces.  That's what sets the modifieds apart from the rebuilt. Yes, I said rebuilt, not restored as there are very few actually RESTORED cars out there.  A restored car means that each bit of overspray is researched and recreated, each paint dot on a coil spring is placed in exactly the right spot and basically, the car has to look exactly like it did as it left the assembly line.  There is one company I know of that specializes in such restorations.  That is Legendary Motorcar in Ontario, Canada.  They had a weekly series here on Canadian television.  They could do a "rebuilt" car that was better than new for approximately $150,000 or a "restoration" that was 100% factory accurate right down to overspray in the right places where it would've had it from the factory for $250,000-300,000.  That was because of the extra research and work to make a RESTORATION.

Even the purists do things to modify their cars and still try and pass it as original - such as stainless exhaust and brake lines.  I find it somewhat hypocritical for someone to say, "yes, I restored my car," but find these items in it.

Whether you like it or not, at 33, guys like me are the future of this hobby whether this club likes it or not.  For not wanting to welcome folks like us because we do things that are not authentically correct is to the detriment of this club.  As members leave, or worse yet, die off, if the club does not change to meet the times, so too the club will die with it.

[62droptop]

speaking on brakes, i do agree at low speed the drums are much more responsive
but when mingling at 80 mph in Detroit on crowded 4 ,5,and 6  lane freeways where the speed can repeatedly go from 80mph to 20 back to 80 in the matter of a few seconds,drum brakes just dont cut it
if you drive the car within the limits of its drum brakes you will be fine
there is no ones influence on what i do to my car,media or peers
it is a result of the real world situations i use my car in
i do not treat it like a 50 yr old car,nor do i want to
i really enjoy driving the car,and the brake upgrade,which by the way unless you crawl under the car or remove a wheel goes un detected!

on the modified cars, i also think that welcoming the modified cars opens up another source of hard to find parts, as people modify their car ,thay will have no use for the original parts they remove and the parts can go on to help others keep their cars going also, i think it is a win- win situation

a lot of people have a great sence of nostalgia and want a car from their youth, until they drive them and then they change their mind.
people have been spoiled by cars that practically drives itself and are less tollerant to cars that do anything less
if someone can resurrect a old car and make it useable for them i say go for it, at least there is another oldie on the road

i agree with Dan, the furture of the hobby and cthis club belongs to the younger generation, lets welcome them in to keep this club alive

unless you get people interested in the old cars ,specially the pre war ones ,who is going to want to buy a beautiful ,rare car that you can only trailer to a show and look at
the younger generation is a generation that actually wants to use the car for what it was made for,to drive

i also love the term restored for a car, most people think a repaint and new brakes make the car restored.
there are not many "restored" cars out ther,most are way over restored
if you want to keep your car orignal, that is great,if you want to modify it that is great too
i see a lot more people turning up their nose at modified cars that people do at original ones.
if the fuel situation gets worse and the carb cars will barely run, my car will be one of the first to be set up with what ever it needs to be a ble to be used,injection or fuel cell,what ever technology is required at the time
i plan on being able to drive my car forever . when original parts wear out and are no longer available, something will be substituted to keep it rolling, even if it means a new chassis
Cuba is a good example of that, you seea nice 56 caddy or something and say wow look at that, upon closer inspection it is on a nissan diesel pick up frame or something
that guy kep her rolling anyway he could

i am all about keping it on the road and USEFULL . not just something i can drive to the local show or cruise night. i do not want a old car just to be able to say i have one in the garage
my tires will definately  wear out before that rot,specially the right rear one , my car gets bugs splattered on it and the ocassional stone chip(they hurt but i'm over it)
my white /red interior is not quite as white as it used to be with two kids climbing in and out of it but thats ok too, i am using my car and enjoying the hell out of it as are my kids .



the attitude needs to stop  for the future of the club and everyone has to learn to appreciate the car underneath it all
 

 

[Jay Friedman]

My '49 is totally stock.  (Well...., almost, since it has a modern AM/FM radio because I don't like the AM programming in my area and not because the original radio was faulty.)  It is still 6 volts and starts even in the hottest weather after a high speed run, since I pay regular attention to the electrics.  As such, it doesn't need an electric fuel pump.  It still has drum brakes which stop it fine and which I keep in tune with occasional major adjustments and overhauls.  I drive it regularly, including 15 long distance trips to 12 CLC Grand Nationals and 3 National Driving Tours up to 1,100 miles away, though, yes, I sometimes suffer without air conditioning.  I'm proud of my car's accomplishments, which are primarily due to it being a high quality Cadillac and, secondarily, due to my mechanical skills and knowledge.  If it were modified substantially, in my opinion it would no longer be a '49 Cadillac but something else.             

Having said the above, it is also my opinion that there is a place in the CLC and on this forum for car's which can be characterized as "upgraded" or modified, though, personally, I don't particularly like the concept.  To me, it's kind of like throwing in the towel.  On the other hand, I believe everyone is free to make his own personal statement with his or her old car and all such statements are equally valid.  The term "old car nut" says it all, doesn't it?

[62droptop]

congrats on driving the 49 Jay, love the fact that you are actually driving it ,that is awesome


i agree modifieds are not for everyone,or are beautifully done back to original cars
in some ways it takes more time to find that elusive last part needed for a resto than to modify something so you do not need that part
on the other hand i give credit to the folks who think out a modification and carry on with it knowing that they have to make up everything in order to make it work

 
there is room on the forum and the CLC for both of us to co exist happily
 

[Dan LeBlanc]

This board does not like change.   Luckily there is Stampie's board.    www.modifiedcadillac.org

Which is why when I'm 70, I have my doubts as to whether this forum and club will still exist.

[Jay Friedman]

Dan LeBlanc may be right, but on the other hand we "restorers" are largely an aging crowd.  I forget the exact percentage of CLC members over the age of 65 that was presented in the survey results in the latest Self Starter, but it was substantial and I'm among them.  The fact remains that younger members are partial to modified cars, so it may be that the club's original purpose of promoting the preservation of Cadillac's in their original state may be modified (no pun intended) to include as full fledged members the modifiers among us and their cars in Grand National judging.  I won't like it anymore than I liked having to buy a cell phone or switch from DOS to Windows but, hey, it's their world.   

[Chris Conklin]

Which is why when I'm 70, I have my doubts as to whether this forum and club will still exist.

As to these forums and clubs; One needs the other. If somebody did not keep these old original cars, they would not be here to restore or modify. To each his own.

As Jay stated, the entire purpose of this club is to further the preservation of original Cadillacs. If you joined this club, you need to be aware of that. Thanks to the fact that Cadillacs are extremely well built, we are able to drive a 50-60 year old car on a regular basis (my '66 is my driver on the highways and bi-ways of Southern California). Many people want to put more modern components on the car to help do that. I don't have a need to do so, but some do. Not a problem, just don't expect it to be judged or accommodated under the aegis of a group that is promoting originality. And "judged" is not a judgemental term (no pun intended) and I am not demeaning modified cars.

Dan, let's talk again when your closer to 70. You may be of a more nostalgic mind and you may feel a need to preserve a club like this. And I realize that your nostalgia will be for the old modified cars of your past. Way off in the future when you're hunting down a car, you don't want somebody else's modified basket case, do you? With any luck, you'll find a clean original example to install that flux-capacitor into.