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1948 Cadillac Engine Oil

Started by 48ragtop, April 18, 2012, 11:24:57 AM

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48ragtop

I'm really not trying to beat a dead horse to death.  I'm aware that the oil discussion as received much attention.   

I still do have some concerns.   I’m planning on using single weight non-detergent engine oil in my 1948 flathead motor.   First time oil change for me with this car.  I don’t have an oil filter thus my decision to go with non-detergent oil.   I’ve not yet pulled the oil pan but plan to do that to check for sludge build up and clean the oil pickup screen.   Eventually I may add an oil filter.  If  I’m able to do that and clean the sump, I may try to change to detergent oil but that’s down the road a bit.

Presently I’m looking for a non-detergent 30 weight oil.   I plan to use that with ZDDP Plus Engine Oil additive.   My issue is that I’m having trouble finding 30 weight non-detergent automotive oil.   My local Pep Boys have such a product but the label says not suitable for cars made after 1930.  The classification is 30W â€" SA.   As the classifications confuse me I’m not sure at this point what the SA classification refers to.  All I know is that I’m not finding any other oils with the single SA classification that are readily recommended for gas engines and thus I’m reluctant to try this in my motor.   

Any help would be appreciated. 

Ed Wisniewski
CLC No. 26482
Edward M. Wisniewski, CLC #26482
1948 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible
1957 Chevy Belair Convertible
1982 AMC Eagle SX/4
2007 Chrysler Crossfire

CEC #20099

Ed: You are looking for SAE 30, not 30W. The Citgo  SAE 30 I have is Citgo API Service SN, which is Detergent oil. It is readily available. API Service SA is basic oil with little extra. I would not use it, even in a sludged motor. Currently, SAE 30 detergent is used in many small air cooled engines.

You might want to consider the many avail 10w40 detergent oils avail, to avoid wiping the cam lobes, etc.
CEC #20099

R Schroeder

If this engine has been using a non-detergent oil, I would not run a detergent oil in it. My dad did that once on a ford and the motor gave out once the sludge was gone.
If your engine is rebuilt , which it sounds like it isn't, then I would use a detergent oil.
Just my opinion.
I thought Walmart carried a non-detergent oil.
Roy

47bigcadillac

#3
In those flathead engines without a filter, sludge (grease) builds up at the bottom of the pan over the years.I had like 1 inch of it but the engine ran fine.

You can try removing the oil drain plug, and then with a piece of bent wire try to pull out whatever greasy sludge is in there - in order to find out if sludge is there or not.
That will save you the time to remove the pan if its not required.

There is also a sort of oil filter inside- a wire mesh placed before the oil pump that would require cleaning as well at some point, once he pan is out.

In terms of oil, any cheap 20W-50 oil with 2 bottles of zddplus added will work fine - cheap is meant so that you can change the oil very frequently and protect the engine from its own sludge/debris etc... I change my oil every 300 miles or so.

You may also add a fumoto drain cock (a valve) so that the oil change is an easy job.
see my car oil pan view:
http://cadillac.gs/engine/drain-cock.JPG
R. Brandys

1932 355B  5 pass Coupe,  Fleetwood          
1935 LaSalle Coupe  5077
1947 Club Coupe      6207

robert G. smits

Ir your engine has not been rebuilt and you plan to use it as a driver I would pull the pan ASAP and clean the pan and oil pump screen.  After considerable internet research beginning in 2007 I use Rotella T-1 30 weight which contains 1200 ppm of zink as compared to multi grade oils which contain approximately 800 ppm of zink.  To this I add 1/2 oz per quart  of GM engine Oil Supplement part # 1052367.  If you decide to use a multi grade add 1 oz per quart.  Cam degradation is only a risk in engines with high pressure valve springs or during break in after a rebuild especially with a new cam.  Engine failure related to low ZPPD in Cadillac flatheads is usually oil pump failure.  Also consider changing to a paper air filter and I also change oil every 300-500 miles.  Just my two cents worth.  Pulling the pan may save you an engine rebuild in the future.
Bob Smits #2426
R. Smits, #2426
23 Cad 7P Touring
32 Cad 5P Coupe
38 Cad 90 Series
41 Cad 63 Series
58 Cad Eldo Barritz
The average man can take care of one Woman and two Cadillacs, Al Edmond AACA Past President

TJ Hopland

Same opinion here.   If the engine is pretty clean then run a detergent oil but if its dirty it may be safer to stay with non.  Look in the lawn and garden section often times you can find non detergent oils there.  Hopefully in quart bottles, not the little 8oz ones.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/ACCEL-Non-Detergent-30W-Motor-Oil-1-qt/17134765

For a while they also carried a brand that claimed to be a SJ spec oil.  Dont see it listed anymore. 
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

48ragtop

Thank you all for your comments and advice.

I’m still concerned about using any oil rated SA such as I’ve found at my local Pep Boys.   The fact that it says on the bottle  “not for use in automotive engines” is my concern.   

Do any of you have an oil filter installed on your engine?   That seems to be the turning point for using detergent vs. non-detergent oil.   I understand from reading other posts and internet forums that the oil filter would safely allow use of detergent oil since the filter would capture any oil borne contaminates that are broken loose by the action of the detergent oil, thus still protecting engine components.

My engine was rebuilt by a previous owner back in 1990 and was run sparingly since that time.   However the only records I have seem to indicate the use of 30 weight non-detergent oil since the rebuild.

Rob Brandys:  I’ve considered installing a Fumoto drain and have seen them on-line.  Looks like a nice accessory.   My only reservation with this is the potential for something to damage or break the drain valve while driving.   This possibility seems remote considering the kind of driving we typically do with our old cars.

Robert Smits:   The Rotella T-1 is a detergent oil, and again my concerns.   There is much discussion which seems to focus heavily on not using detergent oil unless an oil filter is installed.   I understand that changing oil every 300 â€" 500 miles such as you do probably negates the potential risk.    Do you have an oil filter installed on your engine?

T J Hopland:  Using oil like the Wal-Mart product you note is again a concern.   It is also described as an oil not for use in automotive engines.   Of course it may be that all such oils are labeled this way since no new car manufacturer would likely recommend their use today.

I do plan on removing the oil pan and cleaning it as well as the oil pump pickup and screen.   

I’ve also considered installing an oil filter (another project) but do not want to mount it on the cylinder head bolts.  I’ve heard too many stories about head bolts breaking and don’t want to risk that.    Does anyone have a filter mounted on the inner fender or other location?  If so any photos or details of such an installation would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again for all your input and suggestions.   The CLC Forum is a great resource that helps keep these cars going.

Ed Wisniewski
CLC No. 26482
Edward M. Wisniewski, CLC #26482
1948 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible
1957 Chevy Belair Convertible
1982 AMC Eagle SX/4
2007 Chrysler Crossfire

robert G. smits

Ed, in my opinion if your engine was rebuilt in 1990 and used sparingly you can probably switch to a detergent oil.  The damage from switching an old high milage engine to detergent is breaking up the sludge in the oil pan and blocking the oil pump.  It wold be nice if you could track down the rebuilder to see what was done, short of that, I WOULD NOT accept that it was rebuilt unless you have some other evidence of a rebuild.  Short of documentation I would pull the pan.  I would also discount the protection provided by an oil filter since it is a bypass filter and not a full flow filter.  Regardless,  if you have a chunk of sludge in the pan break lose, having a filter will not prevent plugging the oil pump. Estimate how many miles you will drive per year and if you are like most of us the car will probably outlast the driver.  My 41 has toured 37K since 1980 and the engine has never been touched.  My 58 sat in storage for   30+ years before I got it running.  It had an inch of sludge in the pan.  On the advice of someone on this forum I tapered my use of detergent oil by starting with 2 quarts of detergent to the first fill and increasing one quart every 500 miles until I was using full detergent.  Again just my opinions.  The great thing about this forum is that you get a lot advice and you get to decide how to proceed.  Bob Smits #2426
R. Smits, #2426
23 Cad 7P Touring
32 Cad 5P Coupe
38 Cad 90 Series
41 Cad 63 Series
58 Cad Eldo Barritz
The average man can take care of one Woman and two Cadillacs, Al Edmond AACA Past President

waterzap

Quote from: 48ragtop on April 19, 2012, 08:34:46 AM
Thank you all for your comments and advice.

Rob Brandys:  I’ve considered installing a Fumoto drain and have seen them on-line.  Looks like a nice accessory.   My only reservation with this is the potential for something to damage or break the drain valve while driving.   This possibility seems remote considering the kind of driving we typically do with our old cars.


On a side note, I have a Fumoto valve on all my cars. Older ones as well as daily driver. Think I installed the first one two years or so back. Never had a problem. Wont install it on anything that is very low, and if I do scrape the bottom of the car, I stop and just check. But so far no problems at all. The valve, together with speed bleeder screws for the brakes, are definitely worth it.
Leesburg, AL

Tito Sobrinho

From Skinned Knuckles  Vol 15-#12 july 1991. Article appeared in the Sept-Oct 1990 issue of The Flying Lady (Rolls-Royce Club) a report  taken  from the files of Mobil Oil Co Laboratories: Reasonable Proof That Detergent Oils  Prevent or Retard Deposits Rather than Remove Them is Furnished by Experiment and Observation.
The conclusion of this experiment:  Detergent oils are not effective cleansers in the sense of the word.

From SK editor's note:" If the Mobil Oil report is accepted at its face value, a long-held belief will be dispelled that old, high-mileage engines require the use of non-detergent motor oils. Heavy duty detergent oils, while preventing the formation of engine deposits, will not cause catastrophic loosing of deposits in old engines with attendant danger of clogging oil filters or oil passages."  Bill Cannon, SK- Technical Editor.

Tito S.

1949 CCP 6267X  (First Series)

Thanks to Frank Hershey for its design and thanks to Harry Barr, Ed Cole, John Gordon and Byron Ellis for its engine.

Mike Josephic CLC #3877

My advice:

Use a modern 10W-30 / 40 Detergent oil that's a major brand and API
certified. Valvoline, Quaker State, Shell, Mobile, any of the top brands will
serve you well.

Contary to popular myth, the detergents in modern oils will not clean out
40-50 years of accumulated gunk and clog up your engine.  They are
designed to keep particles in suspension and keep them from forming
gunk in your engine.  When you drain them, out goes the crud that they
have accumulated -- not the 1 inch of sludge in your crankcase.  Therefore,
they keep the problem from getting worse.  It's not like pouring kerosese
or another solvent in the engine.

If, indeed, your engine has not been rebuilt for 40+ years it would be wise
to drop the oil pan and clean it out -- regardless of which oil you decide to use.

Do not use a "non detergent oil" in your engine.  They are "garbage oils"
and good maybe for old lawn tractors or such machines.

Mike

1955 Cadillac Eldorado
1973 Cadillac Eldorado
1995 Cadillac Seville
2004 Escalade
1997 GMC Suburban 4X4, 454 engine, 3/4 ton
custom built by Santa Fe in Evansville, IN
2011 Buick Lucerne CX
-------------------------------------
CLCMRC Museum Benefactor #38
Past: VP International Affiliates, Museum Board Director, President / Director Pittsburgh Region

Jim Stamper

#11
     My first car, a blacked out 1942 Chevy X Army car, had 85,000 miles on it when I bought it for $85 in 1960.  It ran like a top, no smoke, started easily and so on. For my first oil change I thought I would be nice and responsible to the car and bought Union Oil Royal Purple Triton high detergent oil for it.  The car also had no oil filter.  Well, I proudly changed the oil and soon after I had the smokiest car one could imagine.  I could be seen coming long before I arrived at my destination, and people knew I had been there long after I left. It was awful, I have never seen another car smoke as bad as that one. But I was only 16 and still an innocent.

     While I believe it is true detergent oils won't wash out the sludge in an oil pan, that really doesn't speak to what happens to the the carbon and other contaminants built up in the valve guides and around and between the piston rings under conditions of the heat and pressure of the running engine.  What happens there isn't pretty in a higher mileage engine.

                                                  Jim Stamper CLC#13470
                                                               

TJ Hopland

My 2cents FWIW based only on personal experience, not what I have read or heard or scientifically tested:

Back before the internet and before I had met a lot of 'enthusiasts' so not knowing any better I used the same oil I used in the current cars at the time in a bunch of old tractors and other engines.  Both engines that had had somewhat regular use and some that had been sitting around for a long time.  I personally never had a problem with any of them.  A few of them I still have to this day and are still running fine.  Most of them were pressurized oil systems with no filters. Oddly to me no oil filter was even common on farm equipment that usually worked much harder and in a much dirtier environment than cars.    I did and still do tend to change it more often than most people would have so maybe that helped.   Just like the lead and now zzpd whatever stuff I read and heard all sorts of horror stories but never actually saw any actual issues first hand.   The few issues I had seen the possible issues caused by the newfangled lubricant were a very minor factor in the demise of the engine thats days were numbered for other reasons well before the introduction of the 'modern' lube or fuel. 
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

48ragtop

Thank you all again for your input and suggestions.   

Robert Smits:
I actually have documentation regarding the engine rebuild back in 1990.   This includes invoices and a detailed written description of exactly what was done and problems encountered.   I have a pretty good comfort level as to the work actually performed.    I will nevertheless be removing the oil pan to examine the internal condition of the lower end.   I’m hopeful of minimal sludge build up.   If that is what I see I’ll certainly be more comfortable going with detergent oil.   I like your suggestion of using a blend of non-detergent and detergent oil with a slow change to a blend more heavily detergent biased.   Sounds like a conservative approach particularly if oil is changed every 500 miles or so.   By the way the documentation I have from the rebuild describes filling the newly rebuilt engine with non-detergent oil at the time the engine work was completed.

I’m still not sure what non-detergent oil to potentially use if I stay with non-detergent, or for that matter use a blend of non-detergent and detergent oil (yes with ZDDP).    The non-detergent oils l’ve seen locally are not recommended for automotive use.  Not use what they are recommended for but it’s not automotive use.   When I check local automotive suppliers most give me strange looks when I ask about non-detergent oil.  If they have any at all it always states on the bottle â€" not for automotive use.   So still a dilemma?   Any other non-detergent suggestions?

Robert Smits:   It’s like you stated;   you get a lot advice and you get to decide how to proceed.

Ed Wisniewski
CLC No. 26482


Edward M. Wisniewski, CLC #26482
1948 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible
1957 Chevy Belair Convertible
1982 AMC Eagle SX/4
2007 Chrysler Crossfire

Classic

The non-detergent oil I found at WalMart (Accel brand) was labeled API (American Petroleum Institute) Grade SA and labeled only for use in engines built before 1930!  Non-detergent oil is typically for use in pressure washer pumps (not engines), air compressor pumps (not engines), chain saw blades (not engines), door hinges, etc.  IMO, I would never use a non-detergent oil in any engine, regardless of age or condition.  BTW, the current API motor oil grade is SN and all grades SH and below are obsolete (although motorcycle oils commonly still use the SF/SG standard).

I'll put a plug in here for http://www.classiccarmotoroil.com/.  It is the perfect oil for any pre-catalytic converter engine (or post catalytic converter engines used infrequently).  Not only does it contain the optimum level of ZDDP, it also contains MIL-Spec preservatives for infrequently used engines, which are not found or needed in conventional motor oils.
Gene Menne
CLC #474

dadscad

I would find a readily available non detergent oil and call or email the manufacturer customer service department to ask them if their oil is suitable for antique auto engines. I suspect the claim "not for automotive use" is referring to modern computer and emission controlled vehicles. Non detergent oil in a modern engine would wreck havoc on a modern design engine system and would most likely void the warranty.
Enjoy The Ride,
David Thomas CLC #14765
1963 Coupe deVille

robert G. smits

Ed, check the oil supplies for sale at your local Farm Fleet or Tractor Supply Store.  My local Tractor Supply outlet  stocks Traveller brand of oil in SAE 30 Non Detergent and SAE 30 HD.  I suspect the HD is a detergent oil.  There are still a significant number of early tractors from the 40's, 50's and 60's being used today. Traveller is a private label for Tractor Supply and is distributed by Warren Distribution of Omaha Nebraska.  I suspect it is similar to their ACCEL label that is handled by some WalMart and Target stores.  It is available in quart, gallon and 55 gallon drums so I suspect it's target customer is not your lawn mower/week wacker user.  Bob Smits #2426
R. Smits, #2426
23 Cad 7P Touring
32 Cad 5P Coupe
38 Cad 90 Series
41 Cad 63 Series
58 Cad Eldo Barritz
The average man can take care of one Woman and two Cadillacs, Al Edmond AACA Past President

48ragtop

Well yesterday I finally pulled the oil pan and got to see what I have to deal with.   

Several comments first:
I found that the cork gasket was a single piece gasket.  This surprised me a bit as all the replacement gaskets I’ve seen for oil pans are in several pieces that have to be installed as a set.   Not a big deal, just an observation.   Has anyone seen a replacement made as a single piece gasket?  If so where can they be bought?

Also I dropped the right side steering linkage to make pan removal easier.   This was simple and let the work proceed without complication.  I’m aware that rotating the engine to move the crankshaft counterweight would have done the same thing.  I just liked having the extra working room.

I was surprised at how loose the pan bolts were.   Most were only tightened down very gently.  I don’t see how it didn’t leak, but it didn’t.   The pan gasket was not applied with any sealant on the pan side, but had just a bit, not much, on the engine side.

Now the good news.   

The oil pan sludge buildup was minimal.  Across the bottom of the pan the sludge depth ranged from zero to possibly 1/16 inch in thickness.   Essentially no sludge to deal with.   The lower end of the engine is free of deposits and other than the oil film is clean.   Oil pump screen is clean and no problems evident.  All this confirms what my documentation is telling me regarding the engine rebuild in 1990 with few miles driven since.   Just need a new gasket, some RTV and I’ll be putting my cleaned oil pan back on with a copper washer on the drain plug.

Based upon what I’ve seen and comments received from fellow forum members, I’m planning to go with a blend of non-detergent oil and detergent oil.   I’ll start out generally with more non-detergent and gradually transition to more detergent.   First oil change in maybe 200 â€" 300 miles and so on.   I’ll include ZDDP Plus, since I’ve already purchased it.  Once I’m fully transitioned to non-detergent I will consider changing to Classic Car Motor Oil and avoid a separate ZDDP additive.   For non-detergent I’ll be checking with my local Tractor Supply and/or Wal-Mart.

Any comments or input would be welcome.

Thanks again,

Ed Wisniewski
CLC No. 26482


Edward M. Wisniewski, CLC #26482
1948 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible
1957 Chevy Belair Convertible
1982 AMC Eagle SX/4
2007 Chrysler Crossfire

48ragtop

Just to avoid any confusion.   I had intended to say "when I transition over to detergent" not "when I transition over to non-detergent".   Just wanted to correct this and not make it more confusing for someone down the road who might view this discussion.

Ed Wisniewski
CLC No. 26482
Edward M. Wisniewski, CLC #26482
1948 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible
1957 Chevy Belair Convertible
1982 AMC Eagle SX/4
2007 Chrysler Crossfire