News:

Due to a technical issue, some recently uploaded pictures have been lost. We are investigating why this happened but the issue has been resolved so that future uploads should be safe.  You can also Modify your post (MORE...) and re-upload the pictures in your post.

Main Menu

New owner 1985 Seville question re:ht4100 engine

Started by guyhalliday, July 30, 2012, 02:23:34 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

guyhalliday

 I have acquired an 85 Seville for a very low price.  I am aware of the Ht 4100 problem engine but I have 2 questions. 
#1  what are the warning signs of engine failure?
#2  I was told that those Sevilles built in late 85 were made with engine changes that prevented failure
    mine wouldn't star today just got a loud clicking sound at ignition.   Battery has full charge .
all car electrics work   This car was built in october of 85.  Did I just throw 2000 bucks away?  the car is in mint condition!

Glen

When you turn the key to the start position and hold it there do you get one click then nothing or do you get rapid fire clicks? 

The first one is a bad solenoid the second is a low battery or dirty battery cable clamps. 

I have a quick fix for the solenoid problem.
Glen Houlton CLC #727 
CLCMRC benefactor #104

Raymond919

#2
Hi Glen,
I'm taking the liberty of answering for Guy since I'm familiar with the '85 in question. There is a rapid fire of clicks not a single clicking sound. The battery is showing just over 13 volts when tested. I helped Guy clean the battery connections and no change. Is it necessary to go deeper?

For myself, on my '49 Caddy, I occassionally get the one click from the solenoid. If I try several times, it will eventually engage the starter and start up. Other times, it will start on the first attempt. Can you share with me your quick fix for the solenoid? I bought on ebay a solenoid rebuilding kit but was saving it as a winter project. Many thanks for your offer of help.
Ray Schuman

76eldo

Rebuilt starters are relatively inexpensive and not too hard to do on that car.

Do a google search for the Yahoo HT4100 forum.  MANY answers there regarding car a feeding of the 4100.

Brian

Brian Rachlin
Huntingdon Valley, Pa
I prefer email's not PM's rachlin@comcast.net

1960 62 Series Conv with Factory Tri Power
1970 DeVille Conv
1970 Eldo
1970 Caribu (?) "The Cadmino"
1973 Eldorado Conv Pace Car
1976 Eldorado Conv
1980 Eldorado H & E Conv
1993 Allante with Hardtop (X2)
2008 DTS
2012 CTS Coupe
2017 XT
1956 Thunderbird
1966 Olds Toronado

Glen

#4
Guy and Raymond,

Somewhere there is a bad connection.  It maybe the ground cable between the battery and ground and/or the connection at the frame or body.  It may also be the connection at the starter but somewhere you have a high resistance in the circuit.  By high resistance I mean somewhere in the one ohm range.

What is happening is when the key is turned to the start position the solenoid picks up (the click you hear) and connects the battery to the starter motor.  The starter draws a lot of current.  As the current builds the resistance drops the voltage.  At some point there is not enough voltage to hold the solenoid in so it drops out.  Now the starter is disconnected, the current drops to a lower level and the voltage goes back up.  The solenoid then picks up again, the cycle repeats until the key is turned off.   

So the way to solve this is to clean all connections on the battery, the starter and the ground connections (including the starter’s ground connection).  Check the battery ground to see if there is paint on the connection.  It should be clean metal. 
Changing the starter may fix the problem but only because the connections are removed and reconnected effectively cleaning them. 
Be sure your battery cables are large enough.  Bigger is better. 
Glen Houlton CLC #727 
CLCMRC benefactor #104

Glen

Raymond,

I am not familiar with the ’49 starter.  My solution works with the modern style solenoids. 

The way they work is the solenoid presses a washer against the two studs connecting them to power the starter.  If the gears do not mesh the washer still touches and the motor turns a bit until the gears mesh. 

The washer rotates a bit each time it is operated.  But the studs get hit in the same place every time and they erode.  As they erode away they get to the point where the washer does not touch when the gears do not mesh, so the starter does not work.  The good news is the studs only erode on one side leaving the other half intact.   

My quickie technique I use is I to rotate one stud.  I do that by removing all the wires on the battery terminal on the solenoid, then back off the nut on the stud.  With the stud loose I push it in until I can rotate it a half turn, then pull it back out tighten up the nut and reinstall the wires.  The starter will operate like new for many years. 
Glen Houlton CLC #727 
CLCMRC benefactor #104

guyhalliday


Raymond919

Glen,
Thank you for the information. I read your instructions closely several times to make sure I understand how it all operates. Your method is very clever and something I'll remember. Thanks for that hint. Since mine works about 80% of the time, I'll continue driving for the rest of this season (unless I reach a point where it just won't start at all) and take the starter out this fall. I believe my starter with solenoid is the same basic type used for many years. I believe the previous owner had the starter re-built but he hardly ever used the car. He drove 2000 miles over the course of ten years (average of 4 miles per week). Could corrosion have built up on the contact points by letting it just sit and my starting it would burn off some corrosion? In my two years with the car, I've driving 6000 miles and it runs better every time I take it out.

A couple years ago I bought a 'solenoid rebuilding kit' on ebay for just $10 and kept it on the side until I got around to opening the solenoid and replacing the parts (a first time effort for me). Many other jobs got in the way, however. Based on your explanation of how it works internally, I now understand the parts in my little kit.

Perhaps one day I can drive out to see you (after over-inflating my tires. LOL).
Ray

PS. On Guy's car, the cables are original and we've cleaned the terminals where they connect to the battery. I looked for the other end of those cables but they go down under and disappear into the confusion of wires. From under the car, I can easily make out the starter which appears to be attached by three large bolts but I see no cables attached. They must attach to the top of the starter and solenoid.

Ed

Guy change the started and it should be OK. My 84 Eldorado had a similar problem.  it's a great looking car. Any buyer's remorse, let me know, I'll buy it from you.  8)

Ed Nieves
Ed Nieves
Member #23765

Glen

Years ago I learned this lesson the hard way.  My 61 Coupe DeVille did this to me.  I replaced the starter and the new starter did the same thing.  Many $$ down the drain.  I cleaned the cable connections and the new starter worked great. 

The starter normally has no ground connection. Ground it provided by the mechanical connection (bolts and case touching the engine). 

You can use jumper cables to trouble shoot this.  Connect only one side of the jumper cable for each test.  Clamp on the frame of the starter and the ground side of the battery as close to the battery post as you can get.  If you can get the clamp on the post that is even better.  If the starter works your problem is in the ground side of the circuit.  If not then the problem is in the hot side. 

My technique with the solenoid can usually be done with the starter in the car. I did it on my 83 S10 pickup.   Takes about 20 minutes. 

Glen Houlton CLC #727 
CLCMRC benefactor #104

Raymond919

Glen,
Thank you for the tip. I would not have thought of that. I will attempt with Guy to ground the starter directly from the battery. I have cables long enough. This starter appears different than what I'm used to seeing. From underneath, it appears to be held in place by three large bolts going directly up into the bottom of the engine. Since I'm unable to see any cables or wires from underneath, I'll ground directly to one of these bolts and give it a shot.
As for my 49's problem of the solenoid not making a good contact internally, I'll give a try to what you suggest of turning the stud without bothering to remove the starter and solenoid completely. Of course I'll disconnect the battery first to avoid inadvertently shorting anything.
Ray