Studdering, running hot, and shuddering, not me my 52

[52Cadillac]

I've had this car for about 3 weeks drove it from Pittsburgh, to SC. 2 issues. She will studder in 2nd gear while accelerating before she shifts into drive. It may not happen at each outing. Almost like the inline fuel filter is clogging, but only does it when gaining speed, and not all the time. Press the accelerator, and it doesnt help, i think it may get worse. She does have an elec fuel pump.
Issue 2 I don't think is related. However on the way back probably 300 mi out I noticed when idling or in slow traffic she would peg the dashes temp gauge. So I put in an aftermarket gauge, and replaced the thermostat. All seemed fine for a few days. Temp was averaging about 200-215. Yesterday it was hotter outside, and the engine temp went to 250 in traffic, then back down to about 225 when moving. Are these temps ok! Or too hot? I read previous posts on overheating, and will try the radiator cleaning on Tuesday when she goes to my mechanic for seatbelts, and the carb is needing adjusting she appears to be running rich, which they will address. What is considered the normal operating temperature for the 331 V8.?
Ok one more minor issue. When slowing down to near a stop or slow roll she will shudder for about 2 seconds then stop( shifting to First gear i believe) any ideas?
3 problems I'd like to address prior to our cross country road trip in mid August.
Thanks, Mike

[Richardonly]

Although not the same engine, mine being a 1948 flathead, I now run about 210 on the highway in 85 degree temps and 76-86 humidity.

Some things will not apply to your year, but may help others with flatheads.

After my temp gauge bit the dust, I also installed an aftermarket for the time being and now have degrees of temperature.  I also purchased a new temp sending switch as mine will allow both to co-exist.  It is yet to be installed as the water hole bolt is in pretty solid and will have THIS job done at the shop.

Anyway, new thermostate installed, 165 degree.

Flushed radiator until only clear water entered drain pan. ( May look clear coming out, but still some sludge in there when it gets depth in the pan.) As per recomendations, I only flushed with water and NO solvent.  Took over 1 hour to become clear.

Wrapped exhaust header pipe near water pump.

Installed about 70/30 rather than 50/50 antifreeze mix to increase boiling point, thus cutting down on any overflow.

Adjusted fresh air intakes to allow air into engine compartment rather than into the car.  (I get plenty of air into the car with the windows down and the vent windows open.)

All these steps reduced the avg running temp 10-15 degrees BUT depends on the outside temp, so it was NOT a controlled comparison.

Hope this helped in some small way.

Richard

[kkarrer]

I think most of us here would say that we'd need more information about your car before we could offer much help.  Things like the mileage on the vehicle, rebuild information, modifications, etc. are very helpful.  After buying and restoring many cars I can tell you that unless I have photgraphic documentation or receipts etc.  I would never head out in a "new" car for much more than a cross- town trip without pulling the radiator and having it pressure tested and cleaned.  This also includes replacing the thermostat and putting a very critical eye on the water pump, fan, and belts.  I also keep a hand held temp scanner handy to check for hot spots on the water jacket and radiator.  Fuel delivery is the next thing...drop the tank, visually check it and seal or replace if necessary and blow the lines and install a back up electric fuel pump (sounds like that's been done on your car).  As to the brakes, you should at least check for leaks at the wheel cylinders, junction blocks, and flex lines and see what kind of sludge/sediment is in the bottom of your master cylinder (which if it isn't a dual cylinder you might want to consider replacing).  Just as a side bar here, I went over this list with a young guy who is in our local club and caravaned with us to Nationals this year (long trip from Austin, Tx. to St. Augustine, Fl.).  He has a 60 Eldo. and a degree in car restoration so I didn't mention my precautions more than once.  Well, we got Florida just fine, but on the way back ran a little lower on gas than we did on the trip out and after filling up and hitting those rough Louisiana roads that engine started stalling out.  We had to stop several times fooling with the fuel pump and carb and when I finally asked if he'd dropped the tank he got this sheepish grin on his face...  We got back to Austin by easing back on the speed 58mph and not letting those four barrels kick in.  We were lucky. I've attached a picture of that red Eldo stuck along side I-10.  His girlfriend was along on the trip...we haven't seen her since we got back...pull the radiator, drop the tank, check the brakes.
Ken Karrer 1941 6227D coupe

[Dave Shepherd]

I think we all agree it is running too ot.  As for the "stuttering", this could be slippage in 2cnd gear or an engine misfire, either way more diagnosis is required to pin this down.. Normally an engine misfire would occur under maximum load, say accelerating up an incline in 4th.

[Roger Zimmermann]

Just as a side bar here, I went over this list with a young guy who is in our local club and caravaned with us to Nationals this year (long trip from Austin, Tx. to St. Augustine, Fl.).

...And the car on the trailer is the Brougham from Rick. I was there when he loaded the car on the trailer at the hotel!

[52Cadillac]

Thanks for the replies. The fella passed away who owned the car, and his son didn't know exact details. The system was converted to 12v.  Yes, new fuel tank was installed, but she is only 12 gal aftermarket tank,  :othe look sucks probably alum, sq in shape. Will try redirecting air on pass side vent into engine compartment for now. I agree no receipts means no proof on rebuild. So on Tues our dig deeper mechanic shop will be doing several things. Including pulling the pan to ck for sludge deposits, etc.  I will include the info you guys gave me with my list. The brakes, wheel cylinders were supposedly checked when we put new tires on at Firestone. I wasn't happy with the work. A rear hubcap flew off going about 50. I was lucky to retrieve it. It had some scratches, bummer. They told me it came off when they test drove it. Anyway I will have them rechecked. Will pull radiator as well. it doesn't seem to overheat all the time. Cooler day yesterday, and she averaged 215. Any thoughts on installing a front temp sensor fan blowing air into radiator. Seen it on some cars back in the day, aftermarket I believe. Ha, read something somewhere about just treating the symptom, and not the problem. Never mind. Good idea to carry extra rebuilt water pump, with belts when traveling or not necessary?
The misfire maybe, I did seem to notice it would do the chugging thing going up an incline or upon acceleration. Both would put a load on the engine. I thought a possible carb adjustment. Could be a misfire. Will check for that as well.
Damnit the oil problem: no one knows what oil the dude used after rebuild. So when I did a change I went by the service book and replaced with a SAE 30. Would it be ok to switch to a 10w30 or 40 weight if not much sludge in bottom of pan, possibly indicating a recent rebuild?

[Dave Shepherd]

40 is too heavy, 30 is ok, I would check the dist dwell or point gap and pull some plugs, check the ign wires and see how they look.  215 is still too hot. Putting on an electric fan is a patch for a deeper problem, rusted cooling system, undersized radiator.  Make sure the upper or lower rad hoses are not collapsing at higher rpms.

[52Cadillac]

Is it a good idea to change over to a electronic ignition with the updated coil?
How do you ck rad hoses? By letting her warm up and increasing rpms at carb and physically observing? Why would they collapse, from ol age? They look new, but so do the wrinkles on my face. Sorry if it's a noobie?? Inquiring minds gotta know.
Thanks, Mike

[R Sotardi #11719]

My 1950 temp stays at about 180f in Arizona summers. I ran hot at speed years ago before I recored the radiator, replaced the water pump( inpeller was way worn), and the timing chain & gear( since I was in there already). I only run 1 gallon of coolant to the system, 1 can of pump lube( anti rust), & one jar of water wetter. The rest is water. Engine has 86k miles and the heads or manifolds have never been off( second owner). Timing at the +5 mark on the pulley. If no one knows if those things were ever addressed recently, assume they weren't. As said before,  check or replace the hoses especially the lower one that can collapse as you drive. Also verify with an infer- red tester that your gauge is accurate. The gauge could be showing hot but the engine may not be. The " drivability missing" could be causing a warm temp issue. More info needed. The shuddering upon coming to a stop is also an issue that could be fuel delivery on a hot engine OR another idea is the front servo in the Hydromatic, sometimes driving the car will help the tranny out.  Ron

[Dave Shepherd]

My 1950 temp stays at about 180f in Arizona summers. I ran hot at speed years ago before I recored the radiator, replaced the water pump( inpeller was way worn), and the timing chain & gear( since I was in there already). I only run 1 gallon of coolant to the system, 1 can of pump lube( anti rust), & one jar of water wetter. The rest is water. Engine has 86k miles and the heads or manifolds have never been off( second owner). Timing at the +5 mark on the pulley. If no one knows if those things were ever addressed recently, assume they weren't. As said before,  check or replace the hoses especially the lower one that can collapse as you drive. Also verify with an infer- red tester that your gauge is accurate. The gauge could be showing hot but the engine may not be. The " drivability missing" could be causing a warm temp issue. More info needed. The shuddering upon coming to a stop is also an issue that could be fuel delivery on a hot engine OR another idea is the front servo in the Hydromatic, sometimes driving the car will help the tranny out.  Ron

Excellent advice. You could install Pertonix ignition with their matching coil, but that is not your immediate concern.

[Glen]

Normally it is the lower radiator hose that collapses.  This is caused by the suction of the water pump.  At higher engine speeds the pump is running faster and the suction is greater.  If there is some restriction in the radiator it will make the problem worse. 

New radiator hoses come with a wire coil in them that looks like a spring.  It is there to prevent the collapse of the hose, but it can rust away. 

The easy check is with the engine cold, grab the hose and squeeze it. If you can close it off then it probably collapses when driving.  I have made my own wire coil to put in the hose more than once.  It is easy and does not have to be pretty. 

[52Cadillac]

Thanks a bunch for the expert advice.
Glen, you are correct, last night I was checking her out and could literally squeeze the lower rad hose in two quite easily. It made me wonder, as easy as she was to close off. I'll replace today, along with upper hose.
Ill have em recor the rad and pressure test as well. You folks have given me an impressive array of things to check on the vehicle, and go over with my by appointment only Mechanic shop. Appears to be professional shop. Keeps vehicles inside when closed up. It will be the girls second clinic appointment for inpatient care. We got this beautiful car to drive. And thats what were going to do. I told my gal that it feels like I'm driving a celebrity around. Very fun indeed. It def rides better then our Toyota and the Jeep.
Thanks Mr Sotardi, and Dave and all ya other folks. Pertronix is on the list, but need to sort these other items first. Is it a good idea to have an extra cant get it at AutoZone, or Napa,  the 331 water pump in trunk for those out of town trips? Or is that overkill?

[52Cadillac]

Couple ?? Guys,
She still getting hot at idle. After replacing lower hose, cleaning radiator, and block, replaced thermostat. Installed pertronix system and new flamethrower coil.
So the old gal seems to running a lot better with the updated ectronics, hasn't been missing that I can tell.
My mechanic says some blockage came out of the heater line, when flushed. May run slightly cooler, but def heats up past 220 in stop and go traffic. Infrared guage at mech shop said about 5degrees cooler at thermostat then guage. Ok Monday, I go back to have them redo the radiator, and the block again. Any other ideas?
Mechanic suggested I get fan shroud installed. Did my 52 have a shroud to begin with? Has anyone installed an aftermarket shroud that was effective? Where can I get one?

Also I can't stop hot air from entering the cabin at my feet. Sometimes it seems to stop, but mostly blowing hot. I'm not sure what's up yet, but can I connect the two heater hoses together to bypass it for now, until after our Texas trip? Or will that cause her to run even hotter? If heater core is bad can that cause her run hotter then normal?
She ran ok when new, so what am I missing?
These Caddies are quite a lot more fun to work on then any car I've had in the past.
Thanks, Mike

[Dave Shepherd]

Using the infra- red thermo, check the temp difference btween the upper and lower hoses, if the radiator is doing it's job there should be at last a 20 degree difference.

[gary griffin]

 Depending on accessories such as A C the fan pulley can be different sizes in the same model car. I don't know if Cadillac does this though. If so it may be interesting to try a smaller fan pulley which would increase the fan speed and therefore the effectiveness of the radiator.

[Jim Stamper]

     As far as the " studdering " goes, is it the engine or transmission?  Have you replaced the carburetor lately or done some work there?  I am not familiar with Cadillac hydros, but I did have a 55 Chevy powerglide  that acted similarly after some mucking around under the hood. An automatic transmission friend pointed out that my " vacuum modulator" I think it was, was out of adjustment. It was the second linkage on the carburetor.  It looked just like throttle linkage but goes from the carburetor down to the transmission.  I don't know if Cadillac has a thing like that or not.  Adjusting it took my friend about a minute.  It roughly involved disconnecting that linkage at the carburetor and adjusting the trans linkage to fit.  It seems like he turned the carburetor crank to full on and pulled the other linkage to full on too and then adjusted the transmission linkage to fit back in its carb linkage hole. It worked like a champ after that adjustment. 

     Obviously, a shop manual would be must if some adjustment is necessary or possible like the above.

                                          Jim Stamper CLC#13470

[R Sotardi #11719]

You can indeed connect the defroster hose and the hose to the water pump. I 've  done this on my 50. I have never had the occasion to need heated defroster air  in Tucson. I probably have a very small seapage through the Harrison /Ranco valve. Also in the def mode (vent in), a small amount of warm air comes out the windshield duct. When I pull the vent out the warm air blows on my feet. BUT, with outside temps of 100+ the engine compartment, or heat from the windshield, is mostly the culpret. You will need a 3/8 double barb and two clamps. But that issue is a result of the hot coolant.

[52Cadillac]

Sorry guys, I thought I posted a response.
A mech here in Texas says all is good on heating. They say to pull a freeze plug stick finger in to see If passages are clear, if not pull em all and flush her out.
Dave, I've yet to pick up a dig temp gauge, may do so this weekend.

Gary, I went over this With Honest John, as well as using a 5 blade fan. However he said in forty years never heard of of your idea. I like it and may check further for some out of the box thinking. He also never heard of swapping the 4 for a 5 blade fan someone had mentioned earlier. If any one knows what fans would be compatible, please chime in.

Jim, I believe it's the transmission, it did get a little better, but I will look at the linkage to see if setup is similar. I did order the ultramatic Transmission adjustment CD. Unfortunately,I'm in Texas and of course the CD is at Home in SC.

R Sotari, after checking further there are three hoses going to the heater core. They appear to be much larger then 3/8, maybe 5/8? This will be done in next couple days.

The missing seems to have disappeared after tightening some plug wires where they go onto plug. Orossibly the engine hasnt gotten hot enough to reat the missing undernload. Plan to pull plugs and clean em soon.
Thanks, Mike

[52Cadillac]

Missing is gone.
Stilling running hot in stopped/slow traffic. Yesterday took to another mech. Instructed him to take temp readings of inlet and outlet of radiator. Temp read 190 in, mid radiator read 135, and outlet read 190. How can that be? Doesn't make sense in my pea brain.

[Dave Shepherd]

The way a non contact thermo works you will not get an accuarate reading against the core, but the difference in temp between the upper and lower hose is the issue, there is none, that would indicate the rad is not cooling the liquid, 20 degrees difference is the minum to show some efficiency. That is the lower hose should be 20 degrees lower. This can indicate thtat some tubes in the rad are blocked or the engine just has poor circulation.