No Spark Starter Rotating Slow?

[VooDoo]

I recently changed my plugs and wires on my 1941. It wasn't drivable when I bought but the engine turns over. I wanted to see if I could get it to fire up. I pulled out a plug and saw no spark. Not sure why. The rotor cap is spinning. Not sure how fast it spins  but seems pretty slow, like 1-2 sec for a complete rotation is this normal? Also the when the engine it turning over seems slow (noise every second or so) I was wondering if it is a starter problem not sending enough power to crank the engine over fast enough and in return not making the rotor cap spin fast enough to create a spark.  Any thoughts? Thanks

[R Sotardi #11719]

It is difficult to judge the engine cranking speed with out actually listening. So lets assume the battery (6v) is fully charged and is in good order. So... are you getting spark fom the coil to the cap? Do you mean you removed a spark plug wire and held the terminal a 1/4"  from a good ground( head bolt etc.) then cranked( started)? 6 volt systems will crank slowly, a gauge test to see if the battery is weak ( or a cell is gone) and the current draw is too much( aka restriction). Leave the plug in, then the #1 plug wire and hold it 1/4" away. If no spark ... put it back, and do the same with the coil. If still no spark, I would swap a known good coil and try again. If the 2nd coil is NG you might have a bad battery connection to the coil or the ignition switch is losing the battery voltage. If there is spark at the coil, check the condenser and the distributor plate connection,  aka pigtail  grd wire.  Either one of these will stop voltage from passing to the plugs. Andy I just thought of one more thing. What gauge battery cables are on the car ? 00 gauge are a must for a big 8 and & 6 volt system. If any thing less go there first. YnZ or Rhode Is Wiring are good places to buy the correct cables.  Ron

[Dave Shepherd]

Andy from here these are tough questions to answer, you need reasonably good cranking rpms, known good points/condenser/coil and wiring, see if you see a slight spark across the points, see if the coil wire sparks when held near a ground, make sure you have 6v on the coil input. all basic checks for no spark. Rotor speed is dependent on engine cranking speed, the only way it would turn too slow is is the gears stripped, I don't think rotor speed is the issue here.

[Dave Shepherd]

It is difficult to judge the engine cranking speed with out actually listening. So lets assume the battery (6v) is fully charged and is in good order. So... are you getting spark fom the coil to the cap? Do you mean you removed a spark plug wire and held the terminal a 1/4"  from a good ground( head bolt etc.) then cranked( started)? 6 volt systems will crank slowly, a gauge test to see if the battery is weak ( or a cell is gone) and the current draw is too much( aka restriction). Leave the plug in, then the #1 plug wire and hold it 1/4" away. If no spark ... put it back, and do the same with the coil. If still no spark, I would swap a known good coil and try again. If the 2nd coil is NG you might have a bad battery connection to the coil or the ignition switch is losing the battery voltage. If there is spark at the coil, check the condenser and the distributor plate connection,  aka pigtail  grd wire.  Either one of these will stop voltage from passing to the plugs. Ron

Ron, brain meld here? LOL

[R Sotardi #11719]

Dave  I guess so, While you were repling I remembered the problem with my 50... 12 volt cables.

[VooDoo]

I called the place I got the cables from and he said they are 2 gauge so He told me to bring them back and he would make me 00. So I think thats where I will start. I sounds like maybe I'm not getting enough power to the starter and that might be the start of the problem. Is that correct?  Thanks

[harry s]

Andy, The 00 cables should make a big difference. Also be sure you have a good ground. It is a good idea to run a seperate ground cable from the frame to a starter bolt or bell housing bolt. Doug Houston had a recent reply to another post describing how to ground the starter directly at the housing. I could not find the post to refer you. Maybe someone will be able to direct you.  Good Luck, Harry

[VooDoo]

Update: I changed those cables to 00. It seems to turn over faster but I still have no spark. I changed the plugs, wires and points, Just stuck them in the way the old ones came out. The rotor cap still seems to spin very slow. I cant see how it would create a spark moving that slow. Any thoughts as to way I can't see any spark when I take out a plug and set it on the block? I'm new to all this so even some of the basics will not be redundant to me

[curly]

Slow Distributor speed will have no effect on the spark produced. You can create a spark simply by opening the points manually.  Since you replaced the points, I suggest that you make sure that they are actually closing completely and opening as one of the high sides of the distributor cam pushes on the rubbing block.
Use a test light or volt meter, check for power at the coil (both sides) and at the points.  If you have power at the points, open them using a screwdriver or similar, there should be a spark from the coil.

You mention you replaced the battery cables. Did you hook them up correctly? This is a positive ground car.  If the cables are backwards, the spark will be weak.

T Lewis

[gary griffin]

How are the coil and the condenser?? The coil boosts the voltage and the condenser basically saves up the energy and lets it go when the points open. I would try turning the ignition on and taking the high voltage wire (The one tha goes to the center of the distribute rcap) leaving one end in the coil and then open the points with a plastic handles screwdriver while holding the open end of the wire about 1/8th to 1/4 inch from a grounded source like the block.  A good spark should jump from the wire to the ground.

[VooDoo]

So doing this wont shock the crap out out me 

[Dave Shepherd]

6v, no.  As mentioned remember the the dist turns at 1/2 the engine speed. Also gap the points on the high side of the cam lobe. Again, do you have 6v to the coil plus side?

[Glen]

These old engines turned slow even when new compared to modern engines. 

The ignition system should produce a spark no matter what the speed of the engine as it relies on the making and breaking of the points to create the spark. 

As others have said; make sure the points are closed when the rubbing block on the points is on a flat spot of the cam and then open when rubbing block is on a high spot. 

[VooDoo]

When i get back in town the next week, I will try this things and see what happens and let you know. . Since I'm new this stuff all the help I can get is much appreceiated. And hey if anyone is in the San diego area and wants to trade out their restoration expertise for some construction/remodeling as a general contractor I'd be more than happen to help   Thanks again. I'll keep you posted.

[VooDoo]

I think I found 1 problem at least. I have two wires from the dist. as shown below. The exposed metal one goes to the coil and that black one is not connected. Where is it supposed to go? I tried to do a search before I asked what I thought was a silly question, but couldn't find an answer. I can't really see where the coil is getting it's power if it is at all. 

[VooDoo]

Also if it helps, the dash wiring is all taken apart I am just touching a couple wires together to get the starter to turn over the engine. There is no push button no ignition key, just a bunch of hanging wires. Is this part of the reason? I am just trying to get the engine to run for now then I will rewire everything and put it all back together. Thanks

[Paul Phillips]

Andy
I have attached a wiring diagram for a 1941 below.  Since you are working with a car that is taken apart, you will need to replicate this with your temporary wiring to make things work.  On an original car, the coil receives power thru an armored cable that exits the ignition switch and enters the coil on the end opposite the hi voltage wire.  If your setup is still original, you cannot see the wire unless you dissect the switch and/or the coil, so you need to provide battery neg. to the switch and use the key to turn it on.  The low voltage wire from the coil goes to the distributor.  There should not be a second wire on the outside of the distributor connection, the condensor and points connections are all internal.  The solenoid on the starter has two connections - one from the start pushbutton and the other from the generator.  When the engine is running, the generator output prevents the starter from engaging.  When the engine is not running, the starter solenoid sees 'ground' from this path.

Please try to replicate this setup when you are doing your tests.  Then, if all other systems are right, you should have spark and be able to get the engine to fire.

Let us know how this works out.

Paul

[VooDoo]

That's kinda what I was thinking. Can I jump a wire from that cable which I is no longer connected to the ignition switch to the ones that I am touching together to crank that engine over. Wouldn't this send power to the coil and possibly give me spark.  That exposed wire does run to the coil but that 2nd black wire on the dist. goes is not hooked up. Where should I connect it?

[VooDoo]

I tried a jumper wire from the ignition cable to the hotwire and touched it to the wire I was using to start the starter up. I took the coil wire off of the dist and saw some spark. The car farted once and the ignition wire got hot and started smoking. I exposed some new ignition wire , cut off what had burned and did the same thing. The car farted again and the jumper wire go hot again. So I guess the car is trying to start. Which is somewhat promising. 

At this point what would you recommend I do? As I said before, I need to get a complete wiring harness and hook the dash back up. So should I go ahead and do that and then try and trouble shoot everything.  Seems as if it would make life a whole lot easier

[Paul Phillips]

Andy
The wire heating up is an indication there is too much current being drawn on that circuit, so best idea would be to not repeat that, as you may create other damage to the wiring.  The easiest place to start, in my view, is to put the wiring back in original configuration as on the wiring diagram.  That may solve your issues, or there could be lingering problems if a connected device is damaged.  At least that way you will have a 'map' to use to diagnose the other issues, and others can better offer help.  A new harness is probably a good way to do this.  The harness vendors typically offer a front harness that does the dash, engine compartment & front lights, and a body harness that runs thru the headliner area and services courtesy lights, tail & brake lights, turn signals, and fuel gauge.  There should be a connector between the two harnesses behind the dash and just under the 'A' pillar.  If you are only doing the front harness, be careful with the back section, as the insulation is probably very brittle.  Be sure to eliminate things that are not right, light that extra wire on the distributor.

Paul