Wiring window switch to 12v relay

[52Cadillac]

Trouble getting my rear windows to work. Attached all wires as indicated from relay. I wired all blue and white to battery ground. Both greens to 12v power (temp used jumper cables to check correct connections). 2 black wires from relay to a red and a black wire from newly installed actuators in my window regulators. I'm not sure exactly where the 2 reds go on my switch. I've tried diff combos without success. I've the old style switches with three connections, that say on the back from left cyl./bat./mot. Where would the the 2 reds go, and do I need to cross jump any of the 3 post connectors together as well? It just seems one of the grn hots should go to the center switch post (bat.)?
Thanks, Mike

[Philippe M. Ruel]

The fact that the original switches are not standard change-over window switches makes it an interesting problem.

An original switch has 3 terminals, B, M and C.
B is fed by the Battery.
M feeds the hydro-lectric pump Motor
C feeds the hydro-lectric Cylinder valve solenoid.

In the "down" position, B and C are connected : cylinder valve opens but no pressure is in the circuit, so fluid flows outside of the cylinder, lowering the window.
In the "up" position, all three terminals are connected together (this is what makes this switch differ from standard ones). Hydraulic fluid, pressurized by the pump, enters the cylinder through the open valve : this raises the window.

You have either to modify the switches, exchange them for more standard ones or wait for someone here to give you the smart solution I've tried to guess with no success . It may involve a resistor, or a third relay.

[52Cadillac]

Thanks for the info. Understood. Appreciate the sequence. I didn't know really know. I still have parts.

I've since put 12v power to Bat in center of switch, and remainder of wires still hooked to relay, window will go up or down when pushed to Cyl, but depends on which one of two red switch wires are hooked to it. So I can get my rear windows to go up or down, but only when switching the two reds. It will not work at all on Mot.    Hmmm...
Thanks, Mike

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Whatever you use to control the electricity, you HAVE to put a Circuit Breaker in the circuit, as not using at least one at each motor, you will end up burning out the wiring if you hold your finger on the button too long.

It mightn't be you that presses the button, but an unsuspecting child, or adult.   They will most probably think the operation is the same as in their late model car, that has circuit breakers.

Bruce.

[52Cadillac]

Ok, thanks Bruce. I didn't think of that. In line fuse work? Say a 3-5 amp fuse for each side?

Is there modern replacement parts that I could use with my caddy switch housings?
Mike

[Philippe M. Ruel]

A power window circuit breaker is about 20 Amps, don't use a 3 Amp fuse. Plus, a circuit breaker need not be changed if anything goes wrong.

They are not too difficult to find, all "classic" convertible top circuits use them (and maybe the modern ones as well). The conversion system you installed may even have integral circuit breakers.


I need to have a look at some spare switches I have to remember well how they are built, maybe I'll find some reversible modification.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

From what I have seen with some vehicles, and I am very familiar with the '59 Thunderbird, is that they have the Circuit Breaker at the grounding point of the wiring.

This way, as the Ground is common for both the up and down function of the motor, there only needs to be one at each window motor.

As Philippe says, don't use a fuse, as if you do, you WILL need a huge box of them every time you use the window.

As far as what Amperage Circuit Breaker, in 1959, Cadillac used 40 Amp ones for the power seats and windows.

Bruce.

[52Cadillac]

Ok, Thanks Philippe.

I'm not really familiar with a vehicle circuit breaker. I am with a home. If its tripped, do I have to reset the breaker or will it do so on its own? Is placement before the two motor wires and after the relay on the two red switch wires?? Will most automotive stores carry them? Anybody have a pic?
Thanks, Mike.

Ps come to think of it there is an old circuit breaker on my 52 firewall next to hydra pump. It doesnt have a trip. It's not hooked up. Must have been used for original setup.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

I will come in here.

The Circuit Breakers that are used in the automotive industry are the "Bi-metallic" strip type, where as the wiring gets overloaded, the spring heats up, and the contact "breaks" the circuit, then instantaneously cools down and reconnects the circuit.

If the current is still there, as in  the overload, then the spring heats up again and breaks, again, and again, till the overload is not present, as in the power being turned off as in the switch being turned off.

The Headlights in all cars use a Circuit Breaker to act as a "fuse" so that when things go wrong, the lights will not immediately go out, and stay out, as the driver is liable to crash the vehicle.   Fancy this happening as you are driving down a dark unlit road, at 60 MPH.   You are plunged into complete darkness, and there is a bend coming up?   With the Circuit Breaker, the lights will blink off and back on, etc, till you can safely stop.

A house doesn't need that sort of electrical protection, and therefore, when the current is too high, the circuit trips, and stays tripped, until you can find the cause of the short.

Most times with a car, the overload is something that has been added, after the car was built, which causes the extra draw, like higher wattage lights, extra lights without creating the added safety to allow for the extra draw.   Most Automotive Electricians will put in relays to cover the added load.

Bruce.

[52Cadillac]

Thanks for explaining Bruce makes sense.

Still Unable to locate a modern switch box with 2 connections to fit my old housing and thumb switch.

Has anybody else had this problem? Is there a company that will do a conversion on my switches?
Thanks, Mike

[gene harl]

Mike ... here is what I used on my 51..they look like original... order from A1 electric automotive accessories.. 310-328- 8500.. kit# SK7-RGM.. $160.. look on the internet there is pictures
  Gene Harl.. CLC 22406

[52Cadillac]

Great Gene, I owe ya an adult libation. Or a cup of tea. Which ever ya prefer.
I'll call em today.
Thanks, Mike

[Jeff Maltby 4194]

http://www.a1electric.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=AEOS&Product_Code=SK7-RGM

[52Cadillac]

Appreciate the info Jeff. Of course I wasn't able to buzz em yesterday. The link was welcomed.
Thanks, Mike

[Philippe M. Ruel]

I disassembled one of my switches and found out an easy, reversible modification you could process with.



These switches are not symmetrical - see pictures : the "C(ylinder)" brass contact plate is upright, the "M(otor)" one is slanted.


Hence - see drawing - in "DOWN" position, the cylindrical copper rod connects "B(attery)" terminal and "C" plate. In "UP" position, all three terminals are connected.

[Philippe M. Ruel]

Your purpose is to prevent contact between "B" and "C" terminals in the "UP" position, so that the switch works as a conventional two-way switch.

Solution #1 : surround the bottom of "C" plate with insulator tape (yellow on drawing). I wouldn't trust this solution in the long term.
Solution #2 : insert a piece of rigid insulator (plastic or wood - yellow on drawing) to force the "C" contact plate in a slanted position. A bit of a toothpick would do the job, the challenge is that it stays in place upon reassembly (you don't want a permanent modification such as glueing, do you ?).


Let us know what you think of it.

[52Cadillac]

Hi Philippe,
Great that actually makes sense to me. To be sure, Do I need a direct 12v hot to the center and the two reds to outside which will switch polarity? I'll do the conversion on an extra switch and see how that goes. Permanent is good. Yes.
Also leads me to ask about a circuit breaker. Will I need with this setup to prevent my motor wires from overheating, and any recommendations on that? Is 16 ga wire sufficient to run to the drivers door four switch panel, etc?
Hey maybe ya just saved me 160 + buckaroonies. I appreciate the effort Philippe, and owe ya a libation. I better have an open bar at the next GN for as many folks as I'm indebted to on here.
Thanks, Mike

[Philippe M. Ruel]

Do I need a direct 12v hot to the center and the two reds to outside which will switch polarity?

Yes.


Should you choose my soluion #2, I suggest you use a tiny wedge-shaped wood or pastic lamella, that would contact the brass plate on a larger area.

I wish I could meet all of you at a GN - but I unfortunately don't live in the US.

[52Cadillac]

Good deal. I should get to this week. I just got my 64 Corvair Spyder convertible back from body and paint shop. So I've projects galore. Appreciate it.
Hop on a plane for a GN visit.
Thanks, Mike

[52Cadillac]

Yesterday I wired her up, and it worked perfectly. What I did with Philippes directions was this. I used double duct tape (Im aware its a bit cheesy, but its tough, effective, and hidden) to cover the bottom third of both brass contacts below. No problem with working as wired. The beige wire on middle post of switch is 12v hot direct.
My concern is the switch center post using direct hot. Would that bypass the relay, thereby negating it. Or is the switch protected through the grounds in relay? I dunno other then it works.
Also, what about a separate circuit breaker as Bruce suggested previously? Where to acquire and what kind? Where would it be installed?
I guess I should know this prior to wiring it all up?
I did like the switches pointed out to me earlier, but nothing looks as original as original equipment.
Thanks, Mike