CLC Judging in Error: Blue bolts 1977-1981 Cadillac

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

I've recently been informed the CLC (and AACA) have been deducting points for blue bolts underhood on 1977-1981 Cadillacs. I'd like to make it known that the blue bolts used underhood 1977-1981 Cadillacs is indeed correct. The blue bolts were so colored to indicate they were metric. Prior to 1977, no metric bolts were used in Cadillacs.

Hopefully this thread will find its way to way to the relevant parties so this does not occur in the future.

Thank you.

[Dave Shepherd]

Correct on the bolts I was there when the cars were brand new.

[Walter Youshock]

Don't complain--GET INVOLVED.

Write or contribute to an Authenticity Manual.

Attend a Grand National and volunteer to Judge, asking for the classes most familiar to you.  This is our club and the more judges, the better--for the team, the car owner and the club as a whole.

I've never judged that class but I do know that blue bolts are authentic on these cars.

[Scot Minesinger]

I too was around when they had the blue bolts and they were metric.  Frankly, I think we have gone too far in judging when points are dedutcted for the finish of a bolt under the hood.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

I too was around when they had the blue bolts and they were metric.  Frankly, I think we have gone too far in judging when points are dedutcted for the finish of a bolt under the hood.

That's nothing. I've heard of deductions given due to incorrect battery cable wire braiding, and lithium grease in door lock cylinders.

[C.R. Patton II]

Hello Mr. Minesinger

The finish, fit, and size of a bolt under the hood of a Cadillac and a LaSalle IS an important issue of judging.
PRESERVATION of quality standards separates us from mediocrity.
That's why we are the Standard of the World.

[76eldo]

I agree on the details of having the correct fasteners, coatings, clamps, wire ends, and other parts correct for competitive judging.  Totally original and/or correct parts and fasteners make the difference between cars that are being judged.

Brian

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Preservation and attention to original detail have always been a cornerstone of the CLC as well as many other vintage car associations. The judging process helps to promote this ideal.

[Guidematic]

Yes, these bolts were present on all GM cars of this vintage.

Mike

[TJ Hopland]

Seems to me that I remember seeing it mentioned in one (or more) of the factory service manuals.  If it was not Cadillac it would have had to been Pontiac.  I remember reading that and thinking that was cool because it saved time trying to find the right wrench. 

[joecaristo]

I'd also like to add that in 1977 and 1978 the alternator bracket was blue, in 1979 its black on the DeVille and Fleetwood. I was questioned at the Grand National in Ohio about this and the blue bolts on my 78 DeVille. Happily I won 1st place in primary class.
Joe

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Given the relative abundance of 77-81 Cadillacs that still have their blue bolts on, the fact that judges would question their authenticity is somewhat perplexing. I'd certainly imagine there being any number of examples of this era to compare at any given CLC Grand National and thus should make the question a moot point. For example, if a given judge were unfamiliar with the blue bolts, wouldn't he/she notice that 5 other cars also have the same feature? If so, what does he suppose- that everybody owning one of those cars all decided to paint their bolts blue?

Incidentally, I absolutely plan on making the 2014 GN. Would be glad to offer assistance in judging the class in question- assuming I'm not also participating in the class.

[Walter Youshock]

At the absolute most, it would be an Authenticity Deduction.  When Judging, the best case scenario is that the Judging Team gets together before going on the field and their knowledge of the class being judged is discussed.  A preliminary walk-through of the class helps but is not always possible given the amount of cars to be judged and time.  Authenticity deductions are to be discussed with the owner before the sheets are submitted for tabulation.  Obviously if 5 cars have blue bolts and one does not then the 5 should be seen as the correct examples unless it can be positively determined that there was a mid-year change.

So far, we have had assemblers and owners weigh in on this topic.  Who better to "set the record straight" than those with the most experience with this particular generation?  I know Eric knows these cars inside and out and has owned more perfect examples than just about anyone.  That knowledge needs to be put to good use!

On the flip side:  the gold-plated crest bezels, V's and scripts on later '50s cars are technically wrong as these items were gold anodized aluminum.  Unfortunately, the only replacements are the 24k plated variety so the original car stands out as incorrect!

[Michael J. Cascio]

A couple of things...
   
     First:  I have attended the last few grand nationals and always volunteer to judge.  On the Grand National application, you are asked if you are willing to judge and what years are you interested in judging.  The last two years I have stated 1977-1984 Cadillacs and have yet to judge in that class.  I believe that I am not the only one that has had this happen to themself.  The issue is that there are people that should probably should be actively involved in a particualar class and get assigned to another class to fill a gap.  Perhaps there should be some sort of certification for each class that would assure judges in each respective class know that particular vintage well.  Granted, many things are common sense-and should have matter what EXACT year you are judging i.e. 1977 expert judging a 1971.  Many practices utilized for one year should allow you to be able to decipher what is right or wrong for that model.  I have personally witnessed the Blue Bolt issue, and feel that if the right judges are selected for each class we would not have this issue.

Just my two cents worth!!!

Michael Cascio

[Walter Youshock]

Agreed, Mike.  Given that, I think Joe, you and I did a great job in Columbus.  It'd be nice to keep the teams the same from year to year!  BUT, if I ever do get to judge '57-'58, I may never get through by 2:00!

[936CD69]

First off, kudos to Eric for starting this thread, and to everyone who has responded. I took my car to Columbus and had it judged so i could learn it's weak areas and learn myself. I enjoyed the experience and vowed to volunteer to judge the next time I could attend a GN. I am hoping for 2013 but it remains to be seen if I'll be able in light of the short time I've been at my new job.

At Columbus the judging team leader questioned the authenticity of the Phaeton top and Gold trim on my 93. Fortunately I had the original window sticker and factory order guide and could prove they were FACTORY original. The team leader said they had been told at the judges breakfast that NO gold plated trim was factory. In fact factory gold trim goes back to at least the 85 Eldo Commemorative Editions, perhaps farther.

I was inspired to help prepare an Authenticity manual, and finally got permission. Let me say it is much easier said than done to research these cars, and I have a true appreciation for those people who have or are currently working on the older models. One year, a couple grand and about 900 miles to do research and I am still not ready to start writing. About 10 days ago I posted a request for pictures of original cars here, and have received 0 replies.

My point? Whenever you have a chance to contribute anything to making the club stronger, and better prepared for future collectors, PLEASE do so. Threads like this one keep the topic off the back burner!

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Craig is correct about gold trim first appearing on the Commerative Edition 1985 Eldorado & Seville only - from the factory. However CLC judging does provide for equipment/decor packages that were dealer installed when new. Therefore a 1985 Fleetwood Brougham with gold package would theoretically not be subject to point deduction(s) for authenticity or otherwise. However it should be noted the quality of the [aftermarket] dealer applied gold plating is completely different than that of factory issue. Same applies to "Roadster" roof treatments which were often installed by independent aftermarket shops at the direction of the dealership.

Again, it is perplexing CLC judges (if I understand correctly) should be so misinformed on the availability of the Gold Package. Long before 1993, it not only appeared on the window sticker, but in factory sales literature. Additionally, there may be cases in which the Gold Package may not appear as a seperate item on the window sticker when it was part of a larger decor package, such as the Liberty Edition for instance or other equipment groups. To complicate matters, not every special edition always appeared in the sales literature, such as the Spring Edition or other "soft" decor package offerings. 

At any rate, it would seem appropriate that the team leader be armed with a minimum of relevant factory sales literature before setting out to judge- particularly in situations in which his/her knowledge of their assigned class is limited. 

[Scot Minesinger]

The club is better to have these discussions.  My 1970 Cadillac has earned 91 points in one GN, and then 98 at the next without really improving the car.  Provided the same judges handle the entire class, then it should be fair. 

I'm just saying deducting for bolt finishes is harsh.  Many bolts on my 1970 Cadillac were the gold cadmium plate.  If I use Eastwood for bolts to pain them, the finish is often ruined during tightening process.  I use the grade 8 bolts with that finish on them, then the bolts do not have the "M" on them.  Almost no original car even low mileage is going to have much of a sheen on the gold cad finish from 1970.  It is a judgement call, and if the bolts are not rusted and look good it is a killer to take off for them not being shiny gold cad with the "M" on them.  I guess that is where that "it is only original once" comes in.  My hood hinges became worn and I sent them out to SMS for restoration including the gold cad (not paint), and they really look good, just like original.

I drive the car 5,000 miles per year, and so of course it is equipped with radials.  The automotive mechanics were instructed to remove tower clamps and replace with worm gear type.  When you take off for the tires, clamps and bolt finishes, and maybe other stuff it will be a 60 point car.  Yet somehow it always gets over 90?

My car, where everything works, the engine transmission, brakes and etc are in thoroughly good road worthy condition to drive on a 3,000 mile trip.  I'm a mechanical and electrical engineer and it is a joy to maintain and drive my Cadillac.  Just drove it today.

Wish their was a road test at the GN along with the other judging, but that is impossible.  See you all in Quincy, MA next summer.

[62droptop]

Wish their was a road test at the GN along with the other judging, but that is impossible.  See you all in Quincy, MA next summer.

in the triumph car main national show, you have to drive in a couple events to be eligable to be judged for top honours,be it a ice cream run, county tour etc, it doesnt matter what year the car is either

in other words, you cannot push it off a trailer to the parking spot and be judged

i agree with that 100%

i do think that there has to be some allowance for the really old cars that they do not have to endure a as long of a run as the rest of the cars based on llimited mechanical ability and such
but i'm sure that there can be something worked out based on the year of the car

these are cars and meant to be driven and to me at least, that is what makes them valuable, you can actually enjoy driving your art work

i also agree that bolt finishes being dull etc are maybe a bit too much
if original and in good shape, that should be considered perfect

but this is coming from someone who actually drives the wheels off of his classic cars

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Hi Scot

Granted- it is likely that there will be irregularities between scores for the same car at different events, even if those events all take place within the confines of the CLC. This is inevitable due to human error inherent in the judging process. I would actually be more suspect if the same car received identical scores at various events. One of the primary goals of good judging is to maintain certain standards while keeping human error to a minimum. However, inconsistencies are bound to appear periodically despite the best efforts to prevent it.

I respectfully disagree about judging of bolt finishes being overly harsh. Obviously if one owner has seen to replicating the original finish of these parts with scrupuluous attention to detail with much research and at considerable expense while a competing participant does not, it would not only invalidate participant A's efforts but eliminate B's incentive to do so. The primary mission of the CLC is not only to foster good fellowship among Cadillac & LaSalle partisans, but to promote restoration achievements to the highest levels of original preservation and authenticity.

I hope this might make it more understandable.

Eric