What should I do? Involves another CLC member.

[Bill Caddyshack]

I hope that I am not crossing any forum boundaries here, but I need help with a situation. I am recently retired and wanted to explore my lifetime desire to have a vintage Cadillac. I joined the CLC (local and National) in July 2012.

I am a complete newbie to vintage cars though I worked on my own cars in the '50s and '60s.

Then, I saw MY car! A bright red 1958 Cadillac Eldorado Biarritz on eBay several months ago and went for it! The seller is a very nice man with many years in vintage Cadillac restoration and owns several Cadillac convertibles in the fifties and early sixties. Very knowledgeable. A CLC member and Board member in his region.

I talked with him before I bid. He told me that he had owned the car for two or three years and that it was in excellent restorable condition. His eBay ad mentioned that this was one of the most desirable Cadillacs and that these cars sold, when restored and documented, for $150,000 to $200,000. He also stated in the eBay ad that the engine and frames had matching numbers.

He told me he would guide me in the restoration and sourcing of parts. I was unable to visit and inspect the car due to an ill family member. About two thousand miles separated me from the Biarritz, time was drawing nigh and I felt I had to move quickly.

I have a mechanical nature and have friends here who like to work on cars, and I felt good with the seller's provenance, so I pulled the trigger and won the Biarritz!

He immediately began pressing me for the money to be wired into his bank account. I complied in a few days and paid him in full.

I had some problems on my end getting the car delivered, I had bought it during the Holidays and trucks were scarce to deliver the car. My wife named it, "Ritzy." She was in love with it as well.

The car seemed everything I had imagined. Well, the spare tire (that was in the eBay pictures) was not there, but, with a little coaxing "Ritzy" started up and ran. About a week after I got it, two knowledgeable friends, long time Atlanta members of the Peach State CL took a look at it.

They noticed that the oil cannister that should be on top of the engine was missing. This led them to the bright orange Fram spin-on filter down low on the passenger side of the engine. Then to the engine number that clearly showed it was NOT a 1958 engine, but a 1962 engine!

They explained this was a major drawback. A points loser. The Biarritz needed a 1958 engine to show, AND that if I ever decided to sell the car, I would have to divulge that it had the wrong year engine.

So, far from the "Frame and engine numbers match" it didn't even have a 1958 engine. I was floored! My wife and I could not sleep that night. I left several messages for the seller with no response.

I filed under eBay Protection and was told that non-matching engine numbers was not something they covered.

I sent him an email pointing out that the wrong engine was in the car, and on a lesser matter, the spare tire was missing.

He responded that the tire had come off his 1963 Cadillac and, even though it was prominent in the eBay pictures and nothing was mentioned in the ad, it did not go with the car, however he would source a steel wheel for me at a cost of $200 to $500. The seller mentioned nothing about the wrong engine.

I sent him a more strongly worded email about the engine. No response. Another email. No response. A voice mail. No response. I sent him an email threatening litigation.

A week later he called and said that he had "good news" for me in that he had located a good 1958 engine and if I would send him my shipping address, he would send it to me. He went on and on about how he was an honorable, responsible person who would never intentionally make untrue statements, particularly about a vintage Cadillac. It was an honest mistake on his part and he felt very badly about it and wanted to make it up to me. That he had bought the Biarritz at a problematic time in his life and had just parked it in his garage and never "looked under the hood."

For two years!?!

I immediately texted the information to his smart phone, asking for a tracking number. No response.

I sent an email with my address. No response. I am getting very, very tired of this. It is affecting my health.

What would you do? He seems sincere, but he is surely not walking his talk!

[76eldo]

Bill,

If the car has a 1962 engine in it, the car was mis-represented and you were sold something that is not what it is supposed to be.  If it's the red one that was on ebay, I just looked at completed listings, and that car was sold twice in December, on the 8th and the 23rd.  Why was it re-listed?  Someone else see the wrong engine?

I hope you "saved" the ebay listing page either in hard copy or to your computer.  If not, I am sure ebay can retrieve the info for you.

If you like the car, and if it runs well, it's not the end of the world that it has the wrong engine in it, but the car is worth less than one with a proper 58 engine installed.

I would sue the seller for misrepresentation and diminished value and look to get about $10,000 back on the purchase price which will give you enough money to purchase and install a 1958 engine.

Here is an attorney that specializes in these types of cases:
http://www.shawlaws.com/carfraud.html

I do not know him, but he has been a longtime advertiser in many hobby publications.

If the seller is an honorable person and made an "honest" mistake, he should be offering you more than a used engine at this point.

However, if you like the car, and if you got it at a good price, this is a bad start, but I'd rather have to deal with an engine swap than finding out the car was a bondo filled rust bucket or had a rotted frame or something like that.  Try to focus on what you like about the car.

I inspect cars on the east coast for several European collectors and a pre-purchase inspection is always a good thing.  Consider that for the next one.

Lastly, don't let it affect your health.  It's just a car and this can be rectified.

Good Luck,

Brian

[Steve Passmore]

Bill, What state is the seller in?

[Quentin Hall]

G'day Bill,
          I don't know the seller, but there is every chance that he didn't know. Some guys are engine guys some are not. Some care about matching numbers, some do not. I have bought over a dozen Cadillacs over the years and more than half the sellers had no idea where to even find the vin on the chassis let alone the engine. Some want a respectable runner some just want perfection, some want matching numbers. Each to their own. The car is nearly 60 years old. A lot can happen over the years.  I know that of the many 50s Cadillacs that I have seen over the years it is reasonably common for them to have had transplants (some with same year engines , some not). I'd say 30 to 40%. In 63 or 64 when the car was worth $500 it probably got the new engine to move it off the used car lot and so it didn't blow smoke. One of my cars actually had a blank engine block ie it had a replacement factory engine that had never been stamped.
       Don't let this  later engine swap ruin your dream.
       Technically numbers matching in Cadillac speak means engine and frame correct to the year, NOT neccessarily that it has the "original engine" with the  same serial number as the frame. A 58 engine is fairly easily obtainable for a reasonable cost around $1000.   I would  NOT lose sleep, or let it damage your health over this situation. If it makes you hate what is an otherwise beautiful car then it isn't worth it.
          I'm hopeful the seller will come good with an original 58 engine for you. If he doesn't, we'll easily find one for you. I have several contacts that will easily find you an engine. Keep the 62 engine in the car in it. Get a 58 engine and rebuild it at your leisure. A full rebuild will cost $5000. If your missing the tripower then that will be a bit more of a chore to find but you'll need to spend $2500.
       Worst case you may be a little out of pocket, but give yourself a heart attack and the cost to you and your loved ones will be much worse. This group on the forum will help you out I am sure. . . and finding the missing bits will become part of the adventure of the joy of ownership. 
          Just my opinion, but don't go the litigation course. Nobody wins except the lawyers.
          Q
           

[Bill Caddyshack]

I also wonder why the earlier sale fell through. I am sure the previous buyer's contact information can be subpoenaed from eBay in the event of a lawsuit to see why he walked away.

I have saved hard copies and even screenshots of the ad. I am sure these can be certified by eBay if necessary.

Quentin, I appreciate what you are saying. However, an expert that appears to have taken advantage of a newbie has considerable legal exposure in a matter like this.

He told me that one of his cars won Best In Show. I find it hard to believe that an expert, in 1950s and '60s Cadillacs, looking at the engine, would have missed the top-mounted oil cannister, a large piece of hardware and a bright orange spin on filter. And he did take pictures for his eBay ad. Didn't show the bright orange filter. Was this accidental?

I think that a jury would find in my favor. I don't want to have to push it in this direction, but am preparing to do so.

While not an attorney, I have two years in law school. I have personally filed -- and won -- many lawsuits in the course of my businesses. I would hate to be on the receiving end of this one!

I will contact the attorney in the link Brian provided. The longer I get this passive resistance from the seller, the higher the price I will be willing to accept.

In my businesses I taught my employees three things an aggrieved buyer needs to very quickly hear:

1. Say "I am sorry!" Haven't heard this from the seller, seems that mostly I am being ignored. This worsens the situation. The legal term is "exacerbates the situation." The seller is mainly saying that he is a good, responsible person who wants to "do right."

2. Say "What can I do to make you happy?" If this happens quickly, the Buyer is much easier to deal with.

3. The seller needs to also quickly let the aggrieved buyer know that the seller is putting systems into place to prevent a recurrence to another buyer. The otherwise supposition is that it could happen to someone else.

I like people. On the phone, the seller seems sincere in his feeling badly about the situation, BUT, he needs to walk his talk and so far all I have heard is a little talk, and no walk!

We love the car, but this is frustrating, and the list of what it will take to make us happy is growing.

[76eldo]

Sometimes being contacted by a lawyer will suddenly make a person who knew they did something wrong a little more agreeable.  I based the $10,000 figure on the cost to find and rebuild an engine plus tri power plus paying a shop to remove and install.

If I was caught in this situation, even accidentally as a seller, and lets say that somehow I didn't know the car had a completely incorrect year engine, I would offer to take the car back.

If the seller is willing to supply a 58 engine and the other Eldorado specific components are still on the car, and he adds some cash, I'd take my lumps and keep the car and build the engine and install it at some point.  But the seller needs to offer something here.

Just my opinion.

Brian

[cadillacmike68]

Brian,  we don't even know what Bill paid for the 1958.

I'm in agreement that there needs to be some sort of rectification here. If Bill wants to keep the car, then he should get a reasonable partial refund of the price, If he doesn't want to keep it, a 100% refund is in order.  I've had to deal with ebay sellers for high dollar non-automotive items (expensive vintage camera bodies & lenses) and have had on occasion had to return $1,000 lenses, but I've never bought a car through ebay, and will not do so. Most are also listed in auto-trader or elsewhere at the same time. I have used auto-trader with success, although for a more recent (1996) Cadillac.

$10,000 is a very high number though, especially for a 'restore-able' not 'restored' car's engine.  Even my 1968 (engine portion) cost considerably less to restore and that was a more complex engine than a 1958.  not knowing what Bill paid, I can't offer an amount, however i would tend to gravitate towards 20-30% of the car's total cost for the engine misstatement.

[Jay Friedman]

I think one of the lessons to be learned here is that one should never buy a vintage car "sight unseen".  If that is impossible, at the very least the car should be inspected by an expert, either a professional (some of whom advertise in Hemmings) or a knowledgeable CLC member who lives in the area (many of whom are willing, sometimes for a small renumeration).   I'm aware of several cases similar to this one and I don't think it matters whether the seller was unaware of the car's faults or was being dishonest--the result is the same.  I vote for suing the seller as he did state something he didn't have to say; ie., that the car was "numbers matching" and everyone in the old car hobby, old hands and newbies, knows exactly what that statement means. 

[Dan LeBlanc]

I ran into the same situation when I bought my 61 Fleetwood.

The seller and a friend both swore up and down the car was not far off from being a driver.  Just needed brake lines and paint.  Since the car was 22 hours away and I couldn't just go see it, and because I had dealt with one of them before and they were honest, I pulled the trigger on the car.

It was just supposed to need a brake job and a minor paint job.  Showed up to pick it up, paperwork and keys were on the front seat.  Nobody home.

What I found that wasn't in the pictures:

Holes in the floor that were big enough to throw a cat through - seller said solid floors.

More rust holes in the rockers that was worse than made out to be

Car was supposed to run and drive well - put the transmission in D or D2, went straight to 4th gear.

I could go on, but at the end of the day, the list of misrepresentations in the car was quite long and I'm still working at getting the car back in a reasonable shape 4 years later that I should've been able to do over a winter.

I called the guy when I got home with it (hey, I had just driven 22 hours to get it, had no way to get my money back, so I sucked it up and brought the car home), and his reply was too bad, you just have buyers remorse.

I share your pain. 

[cadillacmike68]

Jay, Matching numbers is a total BS term, thanks to Chevy owners!

I prefer the term "original cast iron block & heads, and cast aluminum transmission" for something that is truly the original component. But Bill still deserves either a partial refund or a full one (if he no longer wants the car).

Dan, I didn't know 1961s had 4 speed transmissions

[Davidinhartford]

Hire a Lawyer.     Just because someone is a club member doesn't mean they are reputable.

Some people have no problem screwing over friends and family.

If the issues were honest mistakes the seller should refund you the money and relist the car with an honest and accurate description.

[M. Bankes]

I looked at a red '58 Biarritz here in Ontario a few years ago that sounds very similiar to the car you bought. Any chance you know any history on the car ? I was also told it was all original, it has the tri power and air cleaner ect. I went and looked at it, and while it did have the tri power it too had a spin on oil filter. I told the seller that this was not the original engine and explained why. The pointed to me a appraisal of the car and an auction listing that said it was a numbers matching car. I again told them to google it, 1958 Cadillac's did not use a spin on oil filter. They did no seem to care, I walked away from the car, but they continued to advertise it, and I assume sell it as a numbers matching car. I know they sold it, but I don't know where it ended up. Sounds very similiar, and looks very similiar to your car.
Michael

[Aaron Hudacky]

Bill,

I'm sorry to hear what happened.  As others have said, if the description said original engine, it means at very least an engine that is 100% identical to the original design is in place, regardless of price.  Allowing this type of misrepresentation to occur just makes more sellers think it is acceptable to either make statements they haven't verified or blatantly misrepresent what they are selling.  I wish you the best of luck in with litigation, but I have to say, regardless of the outcome, you have a beautiful car.

[Dan LeBlanc]

Dan, I didn't know 1961s had 4 speed transmissions

Not quite sure if that was sarcasm or not.

If not, yes, the Jetaway Hydramatic used until mid-1964 is a 4 speed transmission.  1-2 is a fluid coupling lockup, 2-3 is a mechanical shift, and 3-4 is another fluid coupling lockup.

[cadillacmike68]

It was sort of serious. My expertise is from 1965 & later and primarily 1968-76 plus 90s & up. I did not know there was a 4 speed auto transmission back before 1965.

[Jason Edge]

If not, yes, the Jetaway Hydramatic used until mid-1964 is a 4 speed transmission.

Just a minor correction. The Hydramatic was used the entire 1964 Model Production Year, however, it was only used on certain body styles.  It was used on all 1964 "62 Series", 75 series and Commercial Chassis Body Styles.

The 1964 DeVilles, Fleetwood 60 Specials, and Eldorados all came with the new for 1964 and "Buick Borrowed" Turbo Hydramatic.   

In 1965, Cadillac would get its own Turbo Hydramatic with a new housing designed to bolt directly up to the 1965 429 engine block, sans the adaptor ring required in 1964 to mate the Buick TH transmission up to the engine block.

[Guidematic]

 The Hydra-Matic was used by Cadillac from 1942-1964. There were many variations of it, but it remained a 4-speed transmission. In 1964 the THM400 began to superseded it. Only the Series 62, the Seventy Fives and Commercial chassis used the Hydra-Matic, all the others used the new THM400. In 1965 all Cadillacs used the 3-speed THM400.

Mike

[gary griffin]

   I do not know the dollar amount being discussed here but I do know trying to sue someone in a different state is complex and expensive. Getting appropriate compensation may be difficult if not impossible.

   I have bought several cars on eBay without inspections and had no problems but they can occur as represented by this difficulty.

   I was considering buying a Cadillac convertible in Denver (I am nera Seattle) but I went through the directory and fond a retired club member who looked the car over for me, His report (although just a phone call) saved me from making a similar mistake.

   I think now I would pay for a professional inspection or fly to the point of sale and make sure the car was what I really wanted before paying the "Big bucks" for a classic car.

Gary Griffin

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Just a minor correction. The Hydramatic was used the entire 1964 Model Production Year, however, it was only used on certain body styles.  It was used on all 1964 "62 Series", 75 series and Commercial Chassis Body Styles.

Interesting. Was unaware the TH had been sourced from Buick.

I feel that since the car had been specifically advertised as having a "matching numbers engine", Mr Marsh has a definite cause of action. Apparantly the seller knew, or at the very least, should have known the engine was not original or even correct to the car, being a longtime CLC member with extensive experience working on/restoring Cadillacs of similar vintage. In any case, I hope the situation can be remedied to Mr Marsh's satisfaction.

[Dan LeBlanc]

Unless someone is willing to take this on a contingency fee basis, just think of the legal bills if one loses.  Those legal fees could best be put back into the car.  And really, yes, the engine is not the correct year, however, it is still a Cadillac engine that no modifications had to be made to the car to install.  Here's what the car has going for it:

1.  Rare mid-50s Cadillac desirable model
2. From the sounds of things, in decent shape
3.  Newer Cadillac power plant installed, no modifications to the car required to make it work

So, really, how much value has the car really lost???

If you're looking for a 100-point show car trailer queen, then yes, it's the wrong car, misrepresented (accidentially or intentionally is TBD).  If you're looking for a fun driver and eventually sell it to someone as a driver, I think you'll be fine.  It all depends on what you were looking to do with the car.

If you embark on a lawsuit, you would have to prove that the seller knew it was the wrong engine and that he fraudulently misrepresented the car.  Quite a heavy burden of proof if you want the preponderance of evidence to lean in your favour when he's got a pretty easy defense - "I didn't know it wasn't original and I didn't know what to look for - it said Cadillac on it and I thought it was the right one." 

See where I'm going with this?