HEI distributor

[aod92]

Looking to upgrade to a hei dist. On my 70 Deville. Any of you guys do this? Wondering if its a good upgrade, and what dist. Did you go with?

[waterzap]

I remember Bruce Roe once saying that he won't buy a car without HEI ignitions. Maybe he can chip in.

[bcroe]

I remember Bruce Roe once saying that he won't buy
a car without HEI ignitions. Maybe he can chip in. 

An HEI is always an upgrade over points.  Never did this swap, but others will describe their
results.  I read a double belt A/C comp needs conversion to single belt to clear the larger HEI. 
The ballast resistor needs to be shorted out to provide the peak power needed (the average
power is generally less).  Check for similar mechanical & vacuum advance, these can be
modified.  Chances are a 70 needs a change to deal with todays crap unleaded anyway.  To
finish the job, use the HEI wires & plug gaps.  There might be a wire from the starter to
supply peak start voltage; no longer needed.  good luck,     Bruce Roe

[TJ Hopland]

Here is a recent thread that we/I talk about whats involved in putting an HEI in an older motor.

http://forums.cadillaclasalleclub.org/index.php?topic=124237.0

[Tim Pawl CLC#4383]

We put a Pertronix HEI system inside the stock distributor on 1970 Eldorado . Therefore could use the stock double belt system. It was a simple change, they make a kit. Required higher output coil , but they have one that looks stock also...regap of sparkplugs.       As I recall it was about $100.00   TimPawl CLC#4383

[waterzap]

How much better is the HEI over the previous distributors?

[bcroe]

It puts out a lot more spark energy, and keeps putting it out while points
are continuously degrading.  It eliminates replacing practically every current
carrying part of an ignition every 10K miles, trying to get it back to its
inferior best.  It uses less power at low rpm, and maintains spark energy
much better than points to its rpm limit.  It deals much better with extreme
weather conditions.  There are fewer things to swap in troubleshooting.  The
parts are easier & cheaper to get than most others.  And the points will never
glaze over if not operated for a long time. 

Points may be fine if you drive 500 miles a year in warm, dry weather and
never open the carb secondaries.  That does not describe me on any count. 
Don't run an HEI with a mechanical reg alternator.  Bruce Roe

[TJ Hopland]

I would rate them like most electronical do dads.    When they are working correctly they amazingly better than the old way and require less maintenance.   Downside being that they are electronic computers they can pretty much just quit without warning or apparent cause. 

I have a few engines that still have points but none are still running the conventional way.  3 are using a HEI module as described in the above link and one has an MS6 6 box.   

Beware that most of the points sets available today are crap.  I was having trouble with one engine that I thought was mechanical and seal issues.  Ended up rebuilding the motor only to find it was an ignition problem that was still there.  Was so mad I just parked it for 2 years.  One day was in a small town with a real old time parts store that can find parts without a computer and picked up a set of Standard Ignition Blue Streak points and all my problems went away.   They are apparently still made just not many stores carry them anymore.   

If your existing distributor is in good condition and you have new wires then I think I may consider something like a Pertronix or perhaps a home brew one like in my link in the other thread.   If your distributor has issues and you need new wires anyway them I would be looking at an HEI.   

[waterzap]

Reading about the HEI system caused me to read up a bit more about it. I also see for cars that already has HEI, there is a VHEI upgrade. Those caps are around $70, and should up the voltage from around 40,000 volts to around 53,000 volts. Is that a worthwhile upgrade? Not so much for power, but better spark could mean getting a few extra mpg on a big beast like the Eldorado. Or do I have it wrong ?

[cadillacmike68]

It puts out a lot more spark energy, and keeps putting it out while points
are continuously degrading.  It eliminates replacing practically every current
carrying part of an ignition every 10K miles, trying to get it back to its
inferior best.  It uses less power at low rpm, and maintains spark energy
much better than points to its rpm limit.  It deals much better with extreme
weather conditions.  There are fewer things to swap in troubleshooting.  The
parts are easier & cheaper to get than most others.  And the points will never
glaze over if not operated for a long time. 

Points may be fine if you drive 500 miles a year in warm, dry weather and
never open the carb secondaries.  That does not describe me on any count. 
Don't run an HEI with a mechanical reg alternator.  Bruce Roe

I must disagree. Yes they do require periodic replacement, but not the wires or the coils, and all these parts are still very readily available even as OEM Delco parts. The only thing you must change is the P&C every 10,000-12,000 miles. I also drive my car much more than500 mi per year and I get the secondaries opened all the time.

What's more is the need co change out other parts to accommodate the bigger HEI distributor and cap.

Don't get me wrong, HEI is better, but it it not needed on a 68-74, and I won't put one in these years.

[bcroe]

I must disagree. Yes they do require periodic replacement, but not the wires or the coils, and all these parts are still very readily available even as OEM Delco parts. The only thing you must change is the P&C every 10,000-12,000 miles. I also drive my car much more than 500 mi per year and I get the secondaries opened all the time.

What's more is the need co change out other parts to accommodate the bigger HEI distributor and cap.

Don't get me wrong, HEI is better, but it it not needed on a 68-74, and I won't put one in these years.

Yes, the points coil carries over; the wires, cap & rotor perhaps.  Change the points, capacitor, plugs
every 10K, if not more often, I grew to hate doing that 4 times a year.  The 3 serious failures I see
on HEI are the module, coil, and pickup coil.  I carry a spare module, far simpler to change on the
road (no adjustments).  The HEI coil usually doesn't quit without some warning.  The pickup coil
usually fails from vacuum advance motion of the 2 wires.  Rare until high miles, but fatal when it
happens.  I think the HEI generates more radio noise too.  On my Olds, an HEI also needs an offset
air cleaner.  Function overrules originality in this camp, your needs may vary.  Bruce Roe

[cadillacmike68]

Yes, the points coil carries over; the wires, cap & rotor perhaps.  Change the points, capacitor, plugs
every 10K, if not more often, I grew to hate doing that 4 times a year.  The 3 serious failures I see
on HEI are the module, coil, and pickup coil.  I carry a spare module, far simpler to change on the
road (no adjustments).  The HEI coil usually doesn't quit without some warning.  The pickup coil
usually fails from vacuum advance motion of the 2 wires.  Rare until high miles, but fatal when it
happens.  I think the HEI generates more radio noise too.  On my Olds, an HEI also needs an offset
air cleaner.  Function overrules originality in this camp, your needs may vary.  Bruce Roe

Bruce,

You drive 40,000 miles per year on your car?    Why else would you need to change the points & concdenser 4 times a year?   

P&C is a uniset and changes out in 5 minutes and that includes the time needed to set dwell.

Platinum plugs go for 30,000-50,000 miles. I have replaced the coil only once in over 30,000 miles, and there's no adjustment needed when replacing it. I've put 1 new cap on as well and 1 set of wires. The wires have a Delco lifetime warranty and i have kept the receipt.

I don't like the high pitched whine of the HEI on the radio either and as we both know you don't have to change out any pulleys or brackets with the original. And the car easily goes over 100 mph - on the test track. I have this on good authority.   

[bcroe]

Bruce, You drive 40,000 miles per year on your car?
Why else would you need to change the points & condenser 4 times a year?   

P&C is a uniset and changes out in 5 minutes and that includes the time
needed to set dwell.

Platinum plugs go for 30,000-50,000 miles. I have replaced the coil only
once in over 30,000 miles, and there's no adjustment needed when
replacing it. I've put 1 new cap on as well and 1 set of wires. The wires
have a Delco lifetime warranty and i have kept the receipt.

I don't like the high pitched whine of the HEI on the radio either and as
we both know you don't have to change out any pulleys or brackets with
the original. And the car easily goes over 100 mph - on the test track.
I have this on good authority. 

Yes going to school full time days and working 40 hours (including Sat) and
even trying to do dates, my '62 was doing 40K miles a year.  I didn't know
much about car repair, or have much time for it.  Had another car to drive
while it was in the shop.  I asked my mechanic about reusing the plugs, he
says "not if you want performance".  Smarter now, I usually sand blast &
gap them for the next 25K.  Doubt there were Platinum plugs in those days,
or any unisets (good idea, too late). 

No heated garage then, getting a car in & snow scrapped off, getting the parts
and tools lined up wasn't a 5 minute job, & doing much of anything was no
fun in Feb. 

I have replaced at least one coil on both points & HEI systems & and a couple
modules, though I think HEI did more miles.  I remember jumping out &
switching coils on a car that would suddenly quit; that was it.  Caps, was hard
to say, didn't have so many extra parts to swap for finding problems then. 

In time I learned about car warranties; I have been driving longer than some
suppliers were in business.  Warrantee doesn't mean it won't fail; it means that
when it fails, you bring in the part and they replace it.  You still have to do or
pay for all the labor, plus the inconvenience.  I put a Se*rs guaranteed muffler
on my 62, and I counted using 6 of them.  Finally they didn't carry it any more,
and I got a refund.  Meantime I started using 304 stainless, one less problem. 

When putting my HAM radio in the 62, I fixed all the radio noise sources.  Got
rid of the gen & reg, put a SHIELDED ignition on.  Then I got to listen to radio
noise from other cars.  Unfortunately there wasn't a shield for the HEI, voltage
was too high.  Maybe coil on plug is the best answer. 

Now retired, can heat the shop & even raise the car, only 22K miles a year.  Bruce

[cadillacmike68]

Bruce, I can now see things quite a bit better from your perspective.

Your experience with a P&C car was was before the 1968 introduction of the Delco uni-set P&C with the cap that had the window that you could use an 8mm allen key to adjust while it was on the car with the engine running. The 68 and later points were also better made. I can file and re-use mine 2 or 3 times. These have always been fine for me.

I wouldn't mess with 67 or earlier P&C myself, and if I ever brought myself to buy something prior to 1968, which I probably never will, I would indeed change out the distributor to some sort of HEI.  But I will not do it on a 68-74 car. Those were very well engineered ignition systems.  BTW, replacing the wires on a 68-70 is a 16 minute job at most. But I can also recall getting under the 1970 Fleetwood in December in the snow and ice to replace rusted out brake lines because I couldn't afford to pay a shop to do it, so i know where you are coming from.

[Kevin Bielinski #13320]

I've had HEI in my '70 for over 20 years. Back in 2003, I had an HEI distributor built to 1970 specs. The previous one was good. But the second one was even better.

[Gene Beaird]

<SNIP> I can file and re-use mine 2 or 3 times. These have always been fine for me.

<SNIP>

And the procedure to file and 'recondition' the points is actually in the 68 Cadillac FSM!!   

Try to find something like that (and other rebuilding procedures found in that manual) in a modern-day manual.