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electronic ignition conversion...never again!

Started by 49caddyman, April 21, 2013, 07:34:15 AM

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49caddyman

I recently had a weird problem (s) with my 1949 Cadillac model 7533-X limo that I'd like to share in the hopes of sparing others the aggravation I just went through.
   Someone had installed an electronic ignition conversion kit in the distributor....manufactured by P-------x.  The car would start OK when cold.  Once out on the road, the engine had a fairly serious "skip", and I could get the vehicle up to a maximum of 45 mph on level ground, with the accelerator FLOORED!!  (I'm not kidding or exaggerating!).  Though this particular vehicle weighs as much as a small school bus, it still should have much better performance than this!
   On top of this problem, once the engine was warmed up & I'd shut the engine off & try to restart it, the engine would crank over nicely but wouldn't even fire!
   It was kind of baffling, but I decided to put together a spare distributor & go back to the original ignition points & condenser setup.  I could tell right away that there was a big improvement, and it proved to be so when I took the car out for another drive.....performed beautifully, runs smoothly, & starts instantly when the engine's warm.
   I wouldn't recommend this conversion to ANYONE, needless to say, after this nightmarish experience!  Joe Cutler

The Tassie Devil(le)

Did you have the correct spark plug gap for the upgraded ignition, if there was a different gap?

I know that with HEI, the gap is virtually doubled.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

TJ Hopland

If you are happy with how it works now that is what is important.   But....... 

Quote from: 49caddyman on April 21, 2013, 07:34:15 AM
Someone had installed an electronic ignition conversion kit in the distributor....manufactured by P-------x.

I decided to put together a spare distributor & go back to the original ignition points & condenser setup.  I could tell right away that there was a big improvement

Two things jump out at me.  Someone else did it and maybe did not do it properly.  There are several 'details' of the installation that seem to be often overlooked like eliminating the resistor and proper gap in the pickup.   Also maybe there was something wrong with the old distributor like mechanical advance sticking or stuck, vacuum not working?  Worn bushings?  Or it was just not timed properly?  Pertronix is the name in conversions and has been at it longer than anyone else.  Their original system is supposed to be one of the best.  I have heard mixed things about some of the other models, was this perhaps this was one of their more fancy units?

For electronic ignition I think the best option is a factory one if its available for the engine in question.  If its not then next best option would be Pertonix.  For the rare applications they don't make a kit for there are a bunch of home brew things that can be put together.  I was out running my tractors, skid steer, and golf carts for the first time this season yesterday which all have some sort of conversion on them now and when they all started up easily was thinking how great the conversion was.  It seemed like when they all had points was always having to tinker with them just to get a spark.  Even then that little spark on the cool days early or late in the seasons sometimes just could not quite wake them up. 
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

52Cadillac

I've installed this in several motorcycles of the vintage variety. It was a blessing. I've installed this brand in my Cadillac, and it works. The plug wires need to be upgraded, the coil, and the gap or the plugs are recommended to be changed. I think the platinum? Sometimes no plug change necessary, just regapping the plug.
Sorry ya had that aggravation Joe. Thanks for the Radio. Installing today. Ill take that unit off your hands if its no good to ya.
Mike
SemperFiFund.org
(Helping combat injured Marines)

49caddyman

Thanks, guys, for your input.  Mr. Hopland, in particular, made some good points (no pun intended!).  Since some unknown person had installed this conversion,  it's unfair on my part to "condemn" the company who makes these electronic conversion kits.  If it was the same "butcher" who attempted to install a 6/12 volt conversion, which ultimately resulted in an engine compartment wiring fire, then it most likely was NOT installed correctly!  I therefore RETRACT my comments regarding the performance of P-------x kits.  Joe Cutler

dplotkin

#5
There is a reason why Petronix is controversal. look at various message board & forums for all sorts of makes and you will find a reoccuring theme, some people love them and some people hate them. I concede that a number of those who hate them likely installed them improperly. Yet it does not add up that a widely used and reliable product would be the subject of that much difference of opinion. I have an electrical engineering backround (phone company guy). My view is that Pertronix weak link is heat rejection. The Pertronix unit is essentially a power transistor with associated components that switch the coil primary on and off. The coil primary carries high current and the transistor needs to handle that and get rid of the heat generated doing so.

Recall Chrysler's 1972 Electronic ignition system, regarded by many as the best such OEM system divised, uses a power transistor on a heat sink mounted on a module bolted to the firewall. They did that for a reason. They get hot. Heat is the enemy of semiconductors. Chrysler electronic ignition units rarely fail. GM stuffed its HEI module in the distributor and they are known to eventually fail. Had it happen to me twice with late model GM cars in the 80's.

The Pertronix unit stuffs all the circutry AND the switching transistor inside a little module mounted under a distributor cap. It does not reject its heat well. Some work forever, many do not. My hunch is that this lack of heat rejection makes matching a Pertronix up to a correct coil very important. Wrong primary current draw could make it run hotter than designed.

Most guys I know who run Pertronix keep a set of points & a condenser in the ash tray. That would be god advise. I run stock points in all but two of my high performance cars, one of which needs it to fire through loaded up plugs (big CAM Mopar) & my Corvette which has K66 transistor ignition from the factory (in a heat sinked metal case behind the grill for cooling!)
56 Fleetwood Sixty Special (Starlight silver over Dawn Grey)
60 Buick Electra six window
60 Chrysler 300 F Coupe
61 Plymouth Savoy Ram Inducted 413 Superstock
62 Pontiac Bonneville Vista
63 Chevy Impala convertable
63 Ford Galaxie XL fastback
65 Corvette convertable 396
68 Chrysler New Yorker

76eldo

The old points and condenser mounted in a properly maintained distributor provides reliable service.

You can carry an extra set of points and condenser, cap and rotor in one tidy little box in the glove box or trunk and be able to fix whatever crops up.  Once you convert to Pertronix you open up yourself to electronics failures.

Personally I don't see the need to convert anything that was so well engineered to begin with. 

Brian
Brian Rachlin
Huntingdon Valley, Pa
I prefer email's not PM's rachlin@comcast.net

1960 62 Series Conv with Factory Tri Power
1970 DeVille Conv
1970 Eldo
1970 Caribu (?) "The Cadmino"
1973 Eldorado Conv Pace Car
1976 Eldorado Conv
1980 Eldorado H & E Conv
1993 Allante with Hardtop (X2)
2008 DTS
2012 CTS Coupe
2017 XT
1956 Thunderbird
1966 Olds Toronado

TJ Hopland

A electrical fire under the hood is a good sign that the previous owner and or mechanics were not doing things correctly. 

If you are happy with points thats what counts.  I was happy with them till I did some conversions and experienced the improvement.  Now I can't believe I did not convert all this stuff sooner.  Like most electronics when they are working they work better than the old stuff ever did but the trade off is sometimes they can just decide they are not going to work any more.  Same thing with EFI vs a carb.  You just have to decide if that is a good trade for you.  Quality of points lately seems to be crap so thats one more thing that makes them a pain to deal with.  Standard Blue Streak is the only brand I have found lately that still seems to be decent.  I have had AC delco ones that were terrible along with several other brands that used to be good.  Its such a small market now days I would guess they just don't care anymore.  How ever they are making the condenses now days also does not seem to be as reliable as they used to be.  I have experienced more condenser problems recently than I ever experienced or even heard about when they were commonly used.  Guessing its likely some sort of chemical thing they are no longer allowed to use that made the old ones work well.  Likely some safe or less expensive stuff they use now that just does not work.

I could see seemingly small variables like the under hood operating temps and coil loading making a big difference in how long this stuff lasted.  It did always seem a little odd that the HEI was mounted to something that at best would be around 200* most of the time.   The Chrysler idea on the firewall is not much better.  Ever measure the temps there after you shut down on a hot day?  They still got pretty hot.  Only difference is they were not running at the time.  Guessing it may be the cycling that is harder on them rather than absolute temps.  The 94-2000 6.5 diesels had a similar device.  Factory location was on the side of the injection pump which was down in the valley under the intake. Similar to the HEI module on a rear distributor not much chance for any air flow.  Factory theory was that it was maintained at fairly constant temp by the combination of the engine cooling system and fuel constantly being circulated through the pump.  Over the last 20 years there has been a lot of debate about alternate mounting locations. 

In another recent ignition thread I posted some links to some decent reading and some home brew options that kept the points in place but still gave you the higher power available form the electronics with the option to quickly return to points if you had to.  Ignition 'boxes' like the MSD 6 series can trigger off points without even removing the condenser or re gaping them so you can very easily and quickly be removed from the system if it ever failed.  That may be a good option for people that are less into the home brew options.  The 70's Chrysler module can be used with points.  So can the Ford and GM HEI but those take a few more electronic bits to make them work. 
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

n2caddies

I have converted all my classics where there is an application from pertronix . My learning curve with the system included a full 12V from the ignition not the stock resistor wire and the flamethrower coil.
Randy
Randy George CLC# 26143
1959 Series 62 Convertible
1960 Series 62 Convertible
1964 Deville Convertible
2015 SRX

cadillacmike68

Quote from: 76eldo on April 21, 2013, 10:51:00 AMThe old points and condenser mounted in a properly maintained distributor provides reliable service.
...
Personally I don't see the need to convert anything that was so well engineered to begin with. 
Brian

Agreed!
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike

LeRoy DeVol

#10
I own a 1947 cadillac with a pertronic ignition system for 6 years & 30,000 miles & the car runs great. I believe that the problem Joe was having was when the car was converted to 12volts the previous owner used the 6volt coil, & 6volt ignition system & that may have caused the wiring fire & the pore running of the engine. Pertronic sells systems for 6volt & 12volt cars & you need to install the proper coil that workes with each system. The cars with the resistor to the coil should be removed & 12volts needs to be installed to the coil. Pertronic also sells the proper coil to work with each system.

Lee DeVol

Steve W

I changed to Pertronix to solve whatever issues I had with the distributor and because it's getting tougher to find good reliable points and condenser sets anymore. I had two ponts set-ups that were bad right out of the box in recent months! However, I had a professional do the conversion and he replaced the vacuum advance and properly set all the advance and timing curves, etc.
So far (knock on wood) my Pertronix unit is working just fine!
Steve Waddington
1968 Coupe deVille
North Hollywood, CA
CLC Member # 32866

52Cadillac

Steve, I wish we had a knowledgeable mechanic around here that could fine tune the advance and timing curves of my pertronix. No such luck.
I'm awaiting a vacuum advance to fine tune mine.
Mike
SemperFiFund.org
(Helping combat injured Marines)

Jay Friedman

Some years ago when Pertronix was first introduced I installed it on my 6 volt '49.  At the time, they only made a 12 volt version but I was informed that it would work well down to 4.5 volts. 

I immediately had an problem.  When starting a car with a 6 volt system, particularly the first time that day, the battery voltage can drop to pretty close to 4.5 volts and the generator then takes several minutes to charge it back up.  My driveway is at the bottom of a small hill and because the battery was still low the car would run roughly when under load while going up the hill.  It wasn't serious and the car would run fine after a couple of minutes at the top of the hill and after the battery charged up.  Nonetheless, after several weeks of this it started to be annoying and Pertronix told me that a 6 volt version was going to be manufactured that would solve the problem. 

I didn't feel like waiting, so sold the distributor with the Pertronix to a friend with a '49 and went back to points and a condenser.  I recently installed a dual point system with a Mallory condenser and the car runs great.  Yes, maybe I should have waited for Pertronix' 6 volt system, but I have a stock of high quality points bought at Hershey and on ebay (Delco, Blue Streak, etc.) and I don't mind changing them every once in a while.  In any case, unlike '48 and older distributors which have a grease cup which can be turned in to grease the distributor shaft bushing, a '49 distributor has an oil reservoir instead, so it needs to be removed from the car periodically to check the level.  I'd have to do this even with a Pertronix system, so it's no more work to check the points at the same time. 
1949 Cadillac 6107 Club Coupe
1932 Ford V8 Phaeton (restored, not a rod).  Sold
Decatur, Georgia
CLC # 3210, since 1984
"If it won't work, get a bigger hammer."

TJ Hopland

I could see a 6v system getting below 4.5 at times.   Like you describe with a weak battery from starting and a generator that can't keep up at lower rpms.  Thats a situation that never happened on the bench where the Petronix engineer that told you it would work fine did his testing. Things like micro processors ( which could be in a device like pertronix) can get really un predictable when you start teetering on their minimum voltage.  I could imagine them doing something like sticking on which would stress or damage the internal switching device and or the coil. 
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Roger Zimmermann

When I restored my '56 Biarritz, I wanted to do some good for the car: I installed one of those controversial ignition system. The engine ran good for one year and then developped the same symptoms as stated by 49cadyman. Dyton carbs pointed to the right move saying that the system could induce the problems I stated.
Installed points and condensers: the engine never ran so well.
Electronic conversion, no matter from whom: never again.
1956 Sedan de Ville (sold)
1956 Eldorado Biarritz
1957 Eldorado Brougham (sold)
1972 Coupe de Ville
2011 DTS
CLCMRC benefactor #101

RyanBurman

From my own well of knowledge I have to say that when properly installed the pertronix units are really great. The things that give these conversions a bad name are the off brand and Chinese junk that a bunch of guys use just because it's cheap. You really have to get the wiring right on the pertronix or else it's not going to function the way it should. Finding quality points is getting way harder to do also.

Caddy Wizard

I have gone down this path also.  I've had stock Cad's with (1) stock ignition, (2) with dual point distributor plates and (3) with Pertronix.  The Pertronix were nice in that the point gap is eliminated, so the dwell (and timing) doesn't vary as the points get pitted or as the points start to close up.  From my experience (three cars with Pertronix), they are pretty good.  But, I have had one fail also.  I think the issue is the primary voltage.  Follow the directions very carefully to make sure the electronic module is getting the right voltage AND that the coil is not getting too much voltage (12v coils are normally driven with a good bit less than 12v, while 6v coils are normally driven correctly with 6 or 7v -- the electronic module requires full voltage, be it 12v or 6v depending on the unit).


My ignition of choice these days is dual points.  Just be sure to use a condenser that can support a dual point set up (John W says to use MOPAR condensers from a 50's V8).  The stock condenser that Cadillac supplied will burn up the points in a dual set up in no time.  The dual point distributor plate gives you a longer dwell (34-35 degrees, versus 30 degrees for single points).  This allows a hotter spark, which permits opening the plug gap about 10%.  In addition to the greater spark energy, you also have the reliability of a redundant system (two points, not just one).  So even if one point set craps out, you still have the other set working.  It won't run as well on the lone surviving point set, but it should still run.  As an added bonus, the dual point plates are normally ball bearing configurations, leading to smoother operation of the vacuum advance and centrifugal advance.


Anyway, that is my $0.02 worth...
Art Gardner


1955 S60 Fleetwood sedan (now under resto -- has been in paint shop since June 2022!)
1955 S62 Coupe (future show car? 2/3 done)
1958 Eldo Seville (2/3 done)

Wayne Womble 12210

I cant imagine any 40s and earlier engine needing electronic ignition. It just ain't necessary, and I cant see how you can tell any difference. It fires or it don't. With those low compression, and low revving  engines, points are more than adequate.  I have carried spare points in my old cars for years and have never had to use one, but I have been stranded several times by factory electronic systems on my modern cars.  I will stick with the old stuff.

TJ Hopland

Quote from: Art Gardner  CLC 23021 on April 29, 2013, 05:34:45 PM
My ignition of choice these days is dual points.  In addition to the greater spark energy, you also have the reliability of a redundant system (two points, not just one).  So even if one point set craps out, you still have the other set working.  It won't run as well on the lone surviving point set, but it should still run.

I thought dual points were in series?  One is the first to close and the other one is the first to open?  So unless one happens to fail closed (which seems unlikely or even impossible) how does this let you run on one?  Or do you go in and figure out which one failed and bypass it?
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason