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41 Cowl Mount Antenna Removal

Started by Paul Phillips, July 03, 2013, 09:02:00 AM

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Paul Phillips

Please advise on the removal process for the cowl mount antenna used in the 41 60S (and several other earlier models)?  The manuals and Serviceman bulletin seem to assume one already knows how to do this.  I am planning to relocate the antenna on my car from fender to cowl as part of the restoration and would like to prepare the area 'right'.  I have acquired the proper 'spacer' and 'top insulator' for cowl/rear mount antennas.  Barry Wheeler was a big help with a location template for drilling the hole in the cowl.  Something else needs to be done to be able to R&R the antenna.  I see two possible directions: shorten the mast so the antenna can drop down low enough to remove the top mounting bits, vacuum nipples, and antenna connector - then the antenna could come up thru the cowl; or modify something else, such as cutting open the inner cowl brace or add a hole drilled thru the wood sill.  What is the correct way?

Thanks
Paul
Paul Phillips CLC#27214
1941 60 Special (6019S)
1949 60 Special (6069X)
1937 Packard Super 8 Convertible Victoria
1910 Oakland Model 24 Runabout

Barry M Wheeler #2189

Paul, I have a guy coming up in a few minutes to pick up a headlamp bezel to replace the one someone lifted at a show, so I need a little time to measure my total assembly. As I recall, I had to cut the horizontal  brace as I mentioned and pull the ends out, and then move the bottom of the tube towards the center of the car to pull the whole thing out.
Barry M. Wheeler #2189


1981 Cadillac Seville
1991 Cadillac Seville

Barry M Wheeler #2189

I went out to the car this evening, and there is NO WAY you can remove the antenna without cutting at least a one inch space in the horizontal brace. Get a cutting wheel and remove a section and then make a U-shaped blank and pop-rivet it back on after you have the antenna fixed. There is most likely no instruction on how to take it out in the body manual as they probably figured no one in their right mind would ever have to take it out.
Barry M. Wheeler #2189


1981 Cadillac Seville
1991 Cadillac Seville

Bob Hoffmann CLC#96

#3
Paul,
Too bad no one has the original instruction sheets for dealer installation of this antenna in a 1939 to 1941 60S. There is a guy that should have it but...
Also, how did the factory install them??
Bob
1968 Eldorado slick top ,white/red interior
2015 Holden Ute HSV Maloo red/black interior.
             
Too much fun is more than you can have.

Barry M Wheeler #2189

Guys, the reason there are no instructions on how to "dealer install" a cowl antenna is that instead, they drilled a larger hole in the LF fender and installed the antenna from the other series cars on the 60S ones when it was installed by a dealer. I think there may have even been a picture of a 60S fender showing this along with a note from a Serviceman mentioning this. I know (from when I had the 6719F), that some of the Series 67 cars and perhaps even 75s had to have the rear antenna factory installed. Thus, it makes sense that because of that brace, the cowl antenna was a factory installed item. The workman would probably grab an antenna, slip the mast up through the hole, and then slip the bottom of the antenna tube into the hole in the brace, and perhaps with their other hand, zap a few spot welds on the brace to tack it in place. I'll have to go out and see how the welds were spaced. If the brace is fully seam welded, that weld might have been done on the next station.
Barry M. Wheeler #2189


1981 Cadillac Seville
1991 Cadillac Seville

Paul Phillips

Barry & Bob
Thanks for the continued discussion on this.  My car was built w/o radio, so the antenna was fender installed by someone later, similar to what was done on the Fisher body cars in 41.  What I am hoping to do is replicate the factory installation in cowl because I prefer the look.  It seems strange that Cadillac engineering would have been so lax as to not have offered an elegant solution.

I have just run across a 1939 car on ebay that has a cowl antenna and includes a grainy picture of the left cowl area.  It seems to suggest there is no factory notching in the braces.  I will look today at the welding detail, but I do recall from the Authenticity Manual that assembly started with sills on bench, next the floor pan was tack nailed to the sills.  The cowl structure was welded over the pan and some of the nails, as was revealed when I pulled the sills (car is on a rotisserie with a welded cage inside).  The triangular lower section that contains the brace with antenna hole seems to be one element (see photo) and was one of those welded over nails in the pan.

Barry - if it is feasible for you to measure a total length of your antenna, that may be of help.  I do believe that an antenna assembly, less the vacuum elbows, electrical fitting, and top mount pieces could easily slide down thru the right size hole in the body.  Those bits could be added 'in place', then the antenna raised thru the hole and top mount attached.  For this to be the method, the total retracted height would need to fit between sill and body sheetmetal.  I know the mast on the fender antenna stands too high for that to work, but the retracted height of a cowl antenna seems much shorter.

Thanks again for your assistance on this!

Paul
Paul Phillips CLC#27214
1941 60 Special (6019S)
1949 60 Special (6069X)
1937 Packard Super 8 Convertible Victoria
1910 Oakland Model 24 Runabout

Barry M Wheeler #2189

The tube is 20" by 1". Over all length is 26" with the antenna fully collapsed. GM "engineering" was lax only in that worrying about putting the car together "again" would have been the furthest thought from their minds at the time. Please remember too, that they were only a couple of years from using a running board antenna setup. Having a way to receive radio waves that lasted nearly a half a century without too much change was a pretty good item indeed.
Barry M. Wheeler #2189


1981 Cadillac Seville
1991 Cadillac Seville

Bob Hoffmann CLC#96

Paul.
I'm aware of what you're trying to do. And I agree. We discussed it in previous topics.
The antenna has to fit somehow. The factory & dealers were installing that cowl mount in 39 & 40 before the 41 fender mount even came out. There's has to be a way. Worst case, you notch something to make it fit. It's not going to show.
HTH, Bob
1968 Eldorado slick top ,white/red interior
2015 Holden Ute HSV Maloo red/black interior.
             
Too much fun is more than you can have.

Paul Phillips

Progress report - this can be done! 

A good template from Barry Wheeler and some improvised locating tools made from pvc pipe gave me a location for the hole in the cowl metal that aligns to the hole location in the lower brace.  Removing the 2 vacuum connections and the electrical connection gave me a bare tube that would slip thru a 1-1/8" cowl hole.  That is small enough for the rest of the mounting parts to still work.  I also changed the mast from the Cadillac fender mount one to a shorter design, substituting a mast designed for a tri-5 Chevy that is the same diameter but collapses down as short as the cowl mount.  The assembly will drop in from the top, then sit low enough to add the inside mounting bits, before being raised into position.  I still need to make sure the weep hole in the insulator drains to a controlled place, but it seems a path is available.

There also seems to be a way to remove from the bottom, but I need to have the wood sills back in place to confirm that.  There is a 'bump' area in the sheet metal bracket that spans from the lower cowl panel to the bottom of the wood sill which aligns perfectly with the hole in the brace, and therefore to the mounting hole in the cowl.  Cutting that 'bump' out and fashioning a removable cover may be an option.

Finally, it looks as though Steele does have the correct mounting pad for a cowl or rear fender antenna (GM #1429598), but they do not list under Cadillac.  If you need one, look at their #70-2698-21, which gets listed under Buick and Olds cars.

Paul
Paul Phillips CLC#27214
1941 60 Special (6019S)
1949 60 Special (6069X)
1937 Packard Super 8 Convertible Victoria
1910 Oakland Model 24 Runabout