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Converting 1959 Cadillac to dual master cylinder.

Started by Bill Caddyshack, July 25, 2013, 04:29:56 PM

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Bill Caddyshack

Following the steps in this article.
http://www.photopaige.com/edscars/60caddy/CaddyWebSitev2_files/NewBrakes.htm

Got a booster/dual MC from Summit Racing.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/aaz-50-1117 it looks different from the one in their picture.

Here is a comparison of my original booster/mc. I think that I had a booster gone bad, so I decided I might as well replace and update.

The booster on the new unit is quite a bit larger in diameter. Approx 11". The original measures about 8". Hopefully this will give me greater stopping power.

Here is a picture of the two units. My 58 Cadillac is in the background.

Bill Caddyshack

The first thing I did was to remove my Cruise Control to give access to the old MC. The distribution block for the brake lines was very easy to reach, so I decided to replace my brake lines before going further.

Notice the brass(?) Distribution Block. Two lines go forward to each front wheel and one goes back to the rear wheels. I plan to reroute the line from the rear wheels directly to the new dual mc and plug that opening in the distribution block.

Bill Caddyshack

While I get the new brake lines made, I will need to file out the bolt holes in the firewall and the brake pedal bracket to accommodate the narrower pattern on the new Booster/MC

The side-to-side bolts are about .30 inches narrower on the new unit than the old B/MC. Removing .30" metal is a bit of work! Tried a rat tail file and then resorted to a small grind stone chucked in a high speed air tool. That worked a lot better!

Bill Caddyshack

#3
Just talked with one of the top Cadillac restorers in the country. He says that he always used the 1962 Booster dual/MC setup. This was when Cadillac first brought out the dual mc.


I may be looking at changing brake shoes also. There is a trade-off in getting shoes hard enough to last and soft enough to stop well. The shoes are not all the same in composition. More on this later.


The massive 12" drums should be good enough stopping power. There is a different MC for disk brakes.


Having to attend to other matters over the next few days and will be back on this very soon, as I progress. Any hints or ideas are certainly welcome!

n2caddies

Randy George CLC# 26143
1959 Series 62 Convertible
1960 Series 62 Convertible
1964 Deville Convertible
2015 SRX

Coupe Deville

Hello, I am considering doing this to my 1959 Series 62. I have seen those plans before on the web.If you could post pictures of the finshed product at the end that would help us out alot. And most importantly did it give you more stopping power at the end? Thank You
-Gavin Myers CLC Member #27431
"The 59' Cadillac says more about America than a whole trunk full of history books, It was the American Dream"

David Greenburg

I did this conversion on my former '59 60S, using the Autozone booster/MC unit for a '68 de Ville. I was happy with it, although I must admit it always felt like it had lost just a little bit of the "bite" when you first hit the brakes.  But the reason for doing this is not to increase stopping power, but rather to have at least some brakes if one line fails.   I am planning on adding a dual MC to my '60, although I'm trying to decide whether to switch to discs as well, which I would do at the same time. 
David Greenburg
'60 Eldorado Seville
'61 Fleetwood Sixty Special

Coupe Deville

Yes. That is the one thing i liked. Dual MC is much safer. And the booster on my car doesnt work so I thought this kit would kill two problems at once.
-Gavin Myers CLC Member #27431
"The 59' Cadillac says more about America than a whole trunk full of history books, It was the American Dream"

Blade

Bill, I am also working on the '68 upgrade option, already have the master cylinder and the booster but haven't started putting in them yet - currently working on the generator to alternator conversion.

Also I was reading some articles about how to run the pipes and found that most manufacturers use two options, I decided to go with the cross linked option (see pic). In this setup if one side fails you still have one front and one rear break. I still need to see how I can accomplish this on my car.

By the way, which '59 do you have?

n2caddies

I'm no expert by any means but I would think that in a panic situation having one front and one rear would be dangerous by pulling hard to one side. I would think it would be safer to have a pair of working brakes on one axle. Regarding your generator to alternator upgrade I had my generator converted to an alternator by Don at Genernator in Oregon which is indistinguishable from the original (it still is the original case) except I don't have dead batteries and dim headlights anymore.
Randy
Randy George CLC# 26143
1959 Series 62 Convertible
1960 Series 62 Convertible
1964 Deville Convertible
2015 SRX

Blade

Randy, if you look at the picture again, you'll notice that the system is designed to cross link the lines, in other words you get one side on the front and the other side on the back if one line fails. That is why they call it the cross linked system. This way you have breaks on both sides in case one circuit fails.

n2caddies

That makes sense. These old eyes can't see so well on these little iPhone screens! Thanks for the Clarification. You can teach an old dog new tricks!
Randy
Randy George CLC# 26143
1959 Series 62 Convertible
1960 Series 62 Convertible
1964 Deville Convertible
2015 SRX

The Tassie Devil(le)

I am pretty sure that is a similar system to what Volvo once used.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

JVA

Volvo's system was a dual diagonal, used on their early cars but I believe it was dropped in the late '70s or early '80s with the 200-series cars. Volvo's system was fairly complex, giving redundant braking circuits to the front wheels so no matter which circuit failed you had both front and one rear. Saab used a similar system, but it was single diagonal - one front and one rear.

The problem with converting a car to diagonal from front/rear is proportioning. Conventional dual circuit master cylinders are proportioned to provide more force to the front than to the rear. If you were to redirect those circuits to brake one front and one rear wheel, you could end up with a very unbalanced braking system. You'd need to address that by futzing with the caliper/wheel cylinder sizes or by using a pair of proportioning valves, one in each circuit, to limit pressure directed to the rears.

I'm not sure it's worth the hassle. I think sudden, catastrophic brake hydraulic failures are pretty darned rare. ;) I think you'd be equally well served by installing a real brake fluid level indicator, and/or a brake pressure gauge. Each would probably provide safe, early enough warning of impending failure. I bet some sort of contact sensor or float could be easily installed in a vintage master cylinder. GM's "we'll turn on a warning light when it's already too late" system never struck me as terribly well thought out. ;)

A Honeywell LLE sensor could be probably be installed right in the side of the MC:

http://sensing.honeywell.com/product%20page?pr_id=25959


52Cadillac

While Bills away, let me ask those in the know.
My mc is hard to get to in a small, and tight space. Is it possible to add another single master for the rears? And how would you equalize the pressure?
Thanks, Mike
SemperFiFund.org
(Helping combat injured Marines)

The Tassie Devil(le)

To equalise the pressure of a separate MC, you will need to fabricate up a device as per what Race Cars use.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

Blade

Quote from: 52Cadillac on July 28, 2013, 06:35:52 AM
My mc is hard to get to in a small, and tight space....

First time I heard small tight space and Cadillac mentioned together ...   ;D

Sorry Mike, I am not that knowledgable on breaks but sounds like Bruce's solution is what you need. If you do that could you post some info on it, I'd be interested to see how that worked out and probably others would like to see it as well. Thanks!      Blade~

Bill Caddyshack

#17
Had to delay on this project due to some other committments. Back on it again. According to Frank Nicodemus, the best, easiest dual MC is a 1962.

I just got back from a visit to the Nicodemus "Castle" and am very impressed with Frank's knowledge and sharing of information.

http://www.frank-nicodemus.com/
I got the brake line material below after I returned form NY and did not mention it to Frank Nicodemus. The following is only my estimation.


However the 1968 drum model will work just fine and I don't see trying to return it and going for a 1962 model. However you folks that are just considering upgrading might have a look at the 1962 Cadillac dual mc/booster.

I am also very impressed with this brake line tubing, and bought this kit:

http://www.amazon.com/S-U-R-R-Auto-Parts-BR-EZ14-Replacement/dp/B0021UQZBK/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1375621104&sr=1-1-fkmr0&keywords=S.U.R.+%26+R.+BREZ20050+1%2F4%22+25%27+Roll+Brake+Line+Tubing

Caveat: 25 feet is NOT long enough for a 1959 Cadillac!! I need about an extra 5 feet. So I bought this 50 foot line. Strangely enough, two 25 foot lines are slightly cheaper, but shipping is slightly higher, so they both top out at $94 w/shipping.

I went for the 50 foot line because I plan to do my 1958 Biarritz as well and want to have enough to finish both cars and one long piece left over for a future product. But if you go for this kit or line, get an extra and do two cars.

The double flaring and bending is a breeze!!! I tried the steel and it was difficult. Heard the stainless was even more difficult. But you can bend this material easily with your hands. And making a good double flare is so easy that my wife can do it!

I had difficulty replacing the front line to the passenger side wheel, but it was a hell of a lot better than if I had to use steel or SS. I was able to bend around corners by hand and it worked pretty well.

I was concerned with the longevity of the material and found this glowing article.
http://www.copper.org/applications/automotive/brake.html

It seems that they are describing the same product I am using.

Let me CAVEAT this entire process. I am chronicling my work on my car. Do this at your own discretion because I take NO RESPONSIBILITY for any problems someone else might encounter. If you are not a professional or under the the tutelage of a "hands on professional" I urge you to find one to oversee your progress!

Coupe Deville

-Gavin Myers CLC Member #27431
"The 59' Cadillac says more about America than a whole trunk full of history books, It was the American Dream"

Coupe Deville

What size holes are on the new master for the brake lines input.
-Gavin Myers CLC Member #27431
"The 59' Cadillac says more about America than a whole trunk full of history books, It was the American Dream"