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1942 Caddilac Series 6269 Paint and Body!!!

Started by James Gray, September 10, 2013, 08:43:04 PM

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James Gray

Ok I just received a shock that could very well put someone out of this racket.

The car - 1942 Cadillac Series 6269 - A survivor which is mechanically perfect (mileage correction 5,642 original miles - confirmed). the interior is as if it rolled off the showroom floor save for 4 signs of wear (leather/vinyl trim across the top of the back seat, leather/vinyl across the top of the driver side arm rest and cracks in the steering wheel and minor surface cracks in the wood door trim on the drivers side) Otherwise it is perfect without exaggeration. The body has a few dents but nothing major (no creases or significant dents). Absolutely no rust anywhere. Not in the trunk. Not in the engine bay. Not in the floor boards. Not under the wheel wells on the exterior of the car. No where is there rust. Not even surface rust. ANYWHERE.

Here is the estimate for repair and repaint of the body with color match to the factory #9 (Burgundy - I think).
QTY   Item #                 Description                            Labor per Hr.   Labot Total
2   Remove Trim   Grill                                           $105.00                  $210.00
2   Remove Trim   Front and Rear Bumpers              $105.00                  $210.00
4   Remove Trim   Side Trim                                            $105.00                  $420.00
2   Remove Trim   Door Panel                             $105.00                  $210.00
4   Remove Trim   Handles and Locks                             $105.00                  $420.00
8   Remove Trim   Side Glass Trim                             $105.00                  $840.00
4   Remove Trim   Front and Rear Glass Trim               $105.00                  $420.00
4   Remove Trim   Belt Line Trim                              $105.00                  $420.00
1   Remove Trim   Tail Lights                                             $105.00                  $105.00
1   Remove Trim   Deck Lid Emblems                              $105.00                  $105.00
1   Remove Trim   Hood Emblems                              $105.00                  $105.00
1   Remove Trim   Rocker Trim                              $105.00                  $105.00
1   Labor                  Front Splash Pan                              $105.00                  $105.00
1   Labor                  Rear Apron                              $105.00                  $105.00
0.5   Labor                  Hood                                             $105.00                  $52.50
0.5   Labor                  Deck Lid                                             $105.00                  $52.50
4   Labor                  Fender Extensions on Doors                $105.00                  $420.00
20   Blast                  Blast as Needed                              $105.00                  $2,100.00
40   Bodyworl                  Sand, Strip and Remove Lacquer         $105.00                  $4,200.00
20   Bodyworl                  Rust Repair and Metalwork                $105.00                  $2,100.00
50   Bodyworl                  Bodywork as Needed                $105.00                  $5,250.00
60   Bodyworl                  Prime and Block Sand - Twice                $105.00                  $6,300.00
12   Bodyworl                  Prep Jambs and Insides                $105.00                  $1,260.00
30   Paint                  Paint - Seal, Base and Clearcoat           $105.00                  $3,150.00
40   Labor                  Colorsand and Polish                 $105.00                  $4,200.00
            
                                                                  Labor Total   $32,865.00
                                                    Materials (allowance)   $7,000.00
                                               Parts (to be determined)   $0.00
                                                                     Sub Total   $39,865.00
                                                                      Shipping   $0.00
                                         Sales Tax (to be determined)   $0.00
                                                                        Hazmat   $22.50
                                                              Estimate Total   $39,887.50

Is this ridiculous or am I just cheap (broke)?

The way I see it, for a lot less money, a ton of research and testing, some well invested time, some new tools ("of course" my wife says) and a hell of a lot of elbow grease and I will be doing this myself. Wish me luck. I really don't want to screw this up.
Maj. James F Gray Ret.
Kristie Koepplin RN BSN

Member # 28494
1942 Cadillac Series 6269

Chris Conklin

Ouch!

I would think that everything listed there as "Remove" could be done by you with minimal tooling costs (inform the Mrs.  :D). Doesn't seem to make a sizable dent in the total price, however. It is on the high end. It appears to be a complete strip to bare metal, hence some padding of the cost for repairs and rust, and I assume this work would provide you with a #1 quality trailer queen paint job (it should).

Realistically, half price at around $20K+ for a good repair/repaint is probably more the norm.

Keep us posted.
Chris Conklin

James Gray

Removing parts accounts for approximately $3,500. Which in itself is stupid expensive. I honestly believe I could strip all of the trim myself in less than eight hours. I did so on a custom truck I built a decade ago in less than an hour. Of course it was half of the trim but the situation was equivalent.

I think I will spend some time cleaning everything up and inspecting all the little details of the mechanical while I do some research and rehearsal of metalwork, striping and painting. When I have it perfected, I will strip he naked and pertify her. That's my new George Bush word.
Maj. James F Gray Ret.
Kristie Koepplin RN BSN

Member # 28494
1942 Cadillac Series 6269

BReyes

Bernard

Caddy Wizard

Economic suicide to repaint an original sedan like this.  If you insist on doing this, do shop around.  Price should be less than half of what you were quoted.  To do it yourself is difficult and many people will not finish a project like this once started.  Doing it yourself will save a LOT of money, but it will still be expensive.  I would estimate that you will spend a couple of grand on materials and equipment to do it yourself.  Figure about 500-1,000 hours of time for an amateur to do this in his at-home garage.  I have done this at home myself and it is no easy thing.  Very rewarding, but there will come a near-religious moment part-way into it when you will ask yourself if you really want to finish this job yourself or if you have made a TERRIBLE mistake.  After doing this on a 55 sedan, I swore I'd never do it again.  Of course, that was before I did it on a 54 coupe, 56 Fleetwood, etc, etc (yes, I have a Cadillac habit).


If the car is original, with original paint, better to preserve what you have than to repaint it.  Financially and collectability-wise, imperfect original beats perfect new paint every time (IMHO).


Picture of the 54 coupe getting sprayed at home attached (after converting the in-home garage for use as a spray booth), as well as the finished product before reassembly.
Art Gardner


1955 S60 Fleetwood sedan (now under resto -- has been in paint shop since June 2022!)
1955 S62 Coupe (future show car? 2/3 done)
1958 Eldo Seville (2/3 done)

TMoore - NTCLC

As difficult as it is to believe, cleaning up what you have and knowing that you have one of the only 1942 Cadillacs that is completely original could grow on you.  Yes, there is always a desire to have a shiny, flawless car, but you might be surprised what a complete cleaning and careful waxing could do for the appearance.

When spending big bucks on a paint job, you will start critically eyeing each piece of chrome, thinking that since you have invested so much in the paint, you should at least re-plate those bumpers.  Then, that shiny bumper next to that original, thin-chromed grill makes it look a bit dull, so off the grill goes to the chrome shop (and why not do the vertical bars since it would really make it look nice), and shoot, since you are going to the chrome shop anyway, may as well take the godess and the rest of the pot metal pieces, and have the stainless steel polished, and so on. 

Oh, and reviewing the paint bid, they did not take off the windshield and rear glass mouldings, and then, you should remove the rubber gasket (which has to be replaced), and while you have the glass out, you will notice the de-lamination around the edges and decide to go ahead and have new glass cut, and they also forgot to take the vent window rubber out, so add that to the bid (and replacement rubber). 

By the time you finally get the car back together, it is not so much an original car -

After getting a bid for a paint job that costs more that just about any other fully restored 1942 model (convertibles excepted), I would be thinking about all sorts of alternatives!

James Gray

All right now. There will be no more reading of my mind. I have decided after speaking with a few well knowledge people in the field not looking to make a buck off of me and they all agree with each of you in that the car as original is best rewarding. And I agree. I do like shiney stuff but I've got a 1 of 25 Harley Davidson truck and Harley Davidson bike and a wife to hone my shinning skills on (not referencing the movie).

Anyone in the San Diego know a really good and carefull detailer that is honest? I would hate to have to hurt someone that thought the original emblems would look better in their garage.

Seeking you opinion, and feel free to share this for more opinion... What about the dents, scratches and tweeked front bumper (it appears Carl tried to pull something with it, bent it and welded the mount back on? Do you think these all should be fixed? And if so, is it possible to do this without repainting the area so as to keep the patina?

As for my ability to complete a project... I am a Ranger! Retired of course. There is nothing I cannot do and nothing I will not finish once started. I can say a few wrenches will likely take flight from time to time.
Maj. James F Gray Ret.
Kristie Koepplin RN BSN

Member # 28494
1942 Cadillac Series 6269

R Sotardi #11719

James,  I'm on the fence whether to restore or leave alone a nice original car. The problem is how nice of an original car is yours? Will it win a AACA HPOF award? That is, Historical preservation of original features. Frankly the price seems way high. Not that, broken down to each "job", the labor is way off for San Diego. It will take a couple of hours to R&R the front and rear bumpers. The issue is ... SanDiego. The labor prices are very high there. Tucson/Phoenix are 6 hours away and the labor cost per hour is  at least 30% less.  Folks in Tucson  can tell you who you can cut corners with. Plating shops are cheap Ideal & Royal ( Tucson)do good work. One friend of mine used Maaco  on his stunning early show 65 Mustang. I found one piece of dust all for $1800. He did the removal of trim & no body work. Another is using them on his Cadillac. I used a local shop for my 96.67 pt 1950 model 6219, for todays cost of $5k. Another just had painted a Graham Hollywood for $5500. Are you in any regional CLC chapter or club? Ask those folks for recommendations. You will save a bundle removing and replacing the trim etc yourself. Ron

James Gray

Later this evening I will post some moderate resolution photos of the overall interior and exterior and some close ups of the issue with the paint and body for eveyones opinion and advice.

I really do appreciate all you are sharing as I am absolutely new to this. Not so new to mechanicals but owning and maintaining vs restoring and car such as this. I am particular to OEM so likely I will not modify anything. Likely not even the Master Brake Cylindar (to dual master). If I through tires on this thing I could roll down the road forever right now. Got a small issue with the engine falling flat under exceleration though. minor.

I thought I joined the Cadillac Lasalle Club when I registered but I am now thinking that was for this forum only. So soon I will be joining. I already met some awesome peoples with great information and advice on this project.

Thank you all,

PS. Watch for the picture posts late today.
Maj. James F Gray Ret.
Kristie Koepplin RN BSN

Member # 28494
1942 Cadillac Series 6269

TMoore - NTCLC

Sorry James, I came off as critical, when I really didn't mean to be.

I happen to own a 1942  that was 100% original when I got it, except that the dealer had repainted it for a funeral home before delivery.  It was an excellent paint job -  door panels removed, rubber removed, etc., but the fact is, it was repainted a different color than what is on the tag.  Otherwise, the car is original, and by all indications,was well taken care of over the years.   It had been parked in 1952 and not touched when I bought it.   Yes, the mechanicals needed attention, and I have gone through all that (gas tank and radiator cleaned, complete brake re-build, tires, of course, and the other misc. things) but, I hate the paint (non original Cadillac green, that is well-crazed).  I have been really debating where to go with this car. The interior is original, with a few moth holes and some water-stains on the headliner, but it is all there, and just the way it was delivered.  The dash still has the original tiger-grain, and all the gauges still function, although they are a bit foggy.  The car runs and drives great, but doesn't look great.  I read all the forum posts about how everyone is improving and restoring their cars, and I go back and forth - should I do the cosmetics, or live with what I have got. 

Your car has the advantage over mine - you have the original finish as delivered.  I do not have deep pockets, but even if I did, I would consider keeping what you have got..

Keep us up to date on what you decide to do.  The 1942s are rare birds indeed, and you have our rapt attention.



52Cadillac

Major Ranger in Marine country? Hehe.
Good to keep her as original. Welcome. You joined the National CLC. There are also local/regional CLC clubs you can join and participate in. They can also be extremely helpful. Find them on home page.
Thanks, Mike
SemperFiFund.org
(Helping combat injured Marines)

gary griffin

I know it is not an election but is your choice.  Here is my 20 cents (2 cents when I was young now adjusted for inflation) worth.

First importance is a through safety and mechanical inspection so that you feel safe and are comfortable that you will arrive at your destination and not on  a flat bed tow truck.

Secondly I would suggest a through cleaning and detailing. I know there is no Griots in your area but I would visit their website, they have good detailing equipment and materials and do shipping along with e-mail special sales and pricing. They also have car club meeting places and when we meet there they have product demonstrations. Possibly you will find some of their tutorials on line.  To invest in  a good detailing kit including good buffers is first. I think you are the kind of person that wants to spend the time to do it right and have control of scheduling and costs. A good detailing on your car would cost probably $300 to which I would add a little more and get set up to do it myself.

I am looking forward to the new pictures you mentioned. It is hard to give a real opinion until I can see the car or see good pictures. I would lean towards keeping it original and possibly redoing the damaged areas. These cars were painted with Lacquer versus the modern systems with clear coating.  The modern systems are getting ready to disappear due to environment concerns and California leads the nation in environmental protection so you may be losing (If you have not yet?)the availability of the current painting systems. I have a friend who recently received a modern water based auto paint job and it is already being repainted. For me the jury is out regarding water based auto painting. It will probably vary from state to state though.

My first choice is to do nothing to the paint but I do not know the actual condition of existing paint. My second choice would be to identify the problem areas and do minor body work and find a good painter who can match the original with the original paint. Modern paint systems include a clear coat which is lower maintenance but not original so I would stick to lacquer  for touch up and repainted areas.

It sounds like you have the "argent" painted vertical grill bars that were used on some models, probably because of the war. I do not know if you are aware that there were black out models with no chrome at all produced after a certain date  and even the stainless items and chromed stock items were painted because chromium was a controlled as an "essential" material during the war. The grills are easy to dismantle and usually they are not shined as much as you look further back into the cavity but could be if you desired. I would consider dismantling the grill, repaint the verticals and polishing the horizontals.

Rear 1942 bumpers are difficult to find but I know a restorer in California can provide a nice re-chromed bumper with bumper guards that you may want to consider. I think the front bumpers and guards go through 1947 but I am not too sure? I think he has one of them also. He buys bumpers as cars are crushed and stores the bumpers until he finds a customer so it takes a couple of weeks to get one.  Very nice work though!!

Did you order and did you receive a authenticity manual yet?  That was my first acquisition after I bought my 1942, and now I have one on order for my LaSalle.  These cars are too rare to mess them up in my opinion but since my car had to be repainted I did go to the 2 part system with clear coat.

I have been fortunate in my restorations. An old friend of mine had a shop most of his life in  a very large shop behind his house on acreage. He did work for hire but to fill in the gaps (work when there were no customers jobs) he bought insurance salvage cars and  and put them together to make one good car from two wrecks.  He passed away but his son who is in his mid 40's now grew up in the business and is as good as his dad was now operates the shop behind his mothers house.  He does not do the insurance salvage has dad did but he does fine work in body and painting. He does my restorations as fill in work to keep himself and a couple of employees busy when there are no customers, so my work progresses at the reverse schedule of the shop. The more full price business he gets the longer mine takes at the bargain rate. Sometimes I wish he had a little less new business but that's the way it goes.

I am looking forward to following your restoration at what ever level you decide to do it.

A blog can last as long time, and will come to the top of the Forum every time something is added to it. Please start a running contiguous blog on your  car for all of us to enjoy!!

If there is anything I can do to assist please contact me. There are others in the club also with special affections for 1942's also who you will get a chance to meet at least electronically.
Gary Griffin

1940 LaSalle 5029 4 door convertible sedan
1942 Cadillac 6719 restoration almost complete?
1957 Cadillac 60-special (Needs a little TLC)
2013 Cadillac XTS daily driver

James Gray

You guys are awesome. Such a wealth of knowledge, guidance and a simple pleasure to discuss this stuff with.

I couldn't get the post to allow additional photos. Not sure why but the Blog sounds like a great idea. I could share the progress and get feed back as I go along.

One question, how do I start a blog on the website? I cannot seem to locate that link.

Thank you,

And especially you Gary. Next time I drive to MT, I will plan time to head in your direction so you can give me a ride in that Lil' Red Express. I'll harass you this weekend. I want to tackle that carb issue.
Maj. James F Gray Ret.
Kristie Koepplin RN BSN

Member # 28494
1942 Cadillac Series 6269

52Cadillac

James, I believe all you need to do is go to the restoration section in forums to start your blog. The same way we do with other areas of the forum. Good luck.
Mike
SemperFiFund.org
(Helping combat injured Marines)

James Gray

I tried but it would allow me to load the pictures. It acts like it is working but goes to a blank page. I can;t find the post under the blog section. When I refresh the page, it says I already uploaded the blog. The pictures were reduced significantly so the size shouldn't be an issue. I think I have the new 10 windows explorer and possibly the website is not compatible as of yet. Just a guess. I will get it though.
Maj. James F Gray Ret.
Kristie Koepplin RN BSN

Member # 28494
1942 Cadillac Series 6269

Doug Houston

Jim;
You're a very new guy on our block, and we want to give you the best advice we can. I started fooling with these cars  in 1956, and still have the  first of my old cars (a 1941 Cadillac 60S Formal). It took a long time to get it nice, but it's nice now.  Good thing I never kept records of the money I spent on it!!

I now have 11 collector cars; most of them Cadillacs. All got better as time passed, but all improved slowly. You're starting out on a new life, and in an expensive hobby. I only wish we lived closer. there's a lot that I could help you with It sounds like you're starting out with an exceptional car. The Fisher-Fleetwood "C" body as yours is will some day be a sght to behold. It'll just take lots of time.

A few of my cars came from the east coast, when I was in the Ar,y for two weeks each year. I was in a USAR AFN unit, and was the Station Engineer. We went to Ft. Slocum, NY.

Anyhoo, If I can help you in any way (other than financially), don't be shy about asking.   
38-6019S
38-9039
39-9057B
41-6227D
41-6019SF
41-6229D
41-6267D
56-6267
70-DeV Conv
41-Chev 41-1167
41 Olds 41-3929

James Gray

Darn!!! That estimate scared you as well? I think we are good in the financials department. I'm not filthy rich by any means but I will have a nice retirement without concerns for government funds. Those will be my play money. They will afford me one popsicle stick, a piece of gum and a Dr. Pepper each month. I'll need something to cool me down after these fun filled car hobby days I am gearing up for. :)
Maj. James F Gray Ret.
Kristie Koepplin RN BSN

Member # 28494
1942 Cadillac Series 6269

52Cadillac

Doug, after reading James posts on his car would you recommend a repaint? Or a good buff and polish job only?
Mike
SemperFiFund.org
(Helping combat injured Marines)

James Gray

I have polished the engine bay and it shimmers. I've noticed a lot of vehicles restored with the heads painted an olive drab kind of green. This one has never been out of the vehicle nore painted and it is just bare iron. Is there a reason for the paint other than protection? Were they painted original?
Maj. James F Gray Ret.
Kristie Koepplin RN BSN

Member # 28494
1942 Cadillac Series 6269

Doug Houston

Along the years  I had my cars, I have to laugh at myself fpr all the dumb things I did on them. The 41-60s must have been painted four times before I gritted my teeth and spent $17,000 to have it done. I'm beyond the stage where I can do this stuff myself. I'm 84 now, and out of steam!

Naturally, since I can't see your car, it's hard to judge your situation. I too, wonder what a dtailer could do for it.......?
38-6019S
38-9039
39-9057B
41-6227D
41-6019SF
41-6229D
41-6267D
56-6267
70-DeV Conv
41-Chev 41-1167
41 Olds 41-3929