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Unusual 1951 sedan

Started by Davidinhartford, September 16, 2013, 06:28:48 AM

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Davidinhartford

Spotted this on ebay this morning.

Factory or Derham?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1950-Cadillac-Short-Wheel-Based-Limousine-GM-Tech-Center-Experimental-Concept-/231055568395?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item35cbfc2e0b

Derham type roof.
Limousine style front seat.
Division window
Note extra window controls on rear door.
















okccadman

Its a great car but the seller says it was built at the GM Tech Center which wasn't completed until 1956.  Also the X in the 6019X body designation only means power windows, not Experimental.  And no title?
Jim Jordan CLC# 5374
Oklahoma City, OK

55 Series 62 Sedan
56 Series 62 Coupe
56 Fleetwood 75 Derham Limo
59 Fleetwood Sixty Special
66 Fleetwood Brougham
66 Superior Hearse/Ambulance
67 Fleetwood Sixty Special
68 Fleetwood Eldorado
76 Coupe de Ville d'Elegance
90 Brougham
92 Fleetwood Coupe
93 Allante
94 Fleetwood Brougham
02 Eldorado Commemorative Edition

Davidinhartford

Quote from: okccadman on September 16, 2013, 08:36:12 AM
   Also the X in the 6019X body designation only means power windows, not Experimental.  And no title?

I was thinking the same thing Jim.

It looks like a nicely done custom though. 

Bob Hoffmann CLC#96

David,
Thanks for posting it.
That's a very well done car, probably Derham. The seller is not responding because he doesn't have any answers. Why are these cars always on the other side of the country from me??
Bob
1968 Eldorado slick top ,white/red interior
2015 Holden Ute HSV Maloo red/black interior.
             
Too much fun is more than you can have.

TonyZappone #2624

I owned two Derham limos, both 1956.  I don't think the car is a Derham.  First of all, as late as 1967 (the last dealer large data/and or showroom book I had) , Cadillac would fit about anything but their least expensive models with a division window.  Moreover, the Derham rear window had more of an oval configuration, and was considerably smaller.  If in fact the inside rear window moulding is wood, as Derham used, it would have writing on the inside of it telling for what it was made.  Also, the Derhams used a heavy bronze or brass casting to finish off the moulding on the C pillar, where the old quarter window began.  Of course we all know that the X on the model number means hydroelectric equipment.
Tony Zappone, #2624
1936 Pierce-Arrow conv sed
1947 Cadillac Conv cpe
1958 Cadillac conv
2016 Cadillac CT6 Platinum
2022 Chrysler Pacifica Pinnacle

jdemerson

This is a fascinating find -- thanks for posting! It raises several interesting questions, for example, are there known examples of Cadillac "in-house" special jobs from the 1948 through 1953 era that had custom formal roofs like this? It may be Derham, but if so that means Derham also had different (larger) rear window treatments than what we have seen previously.

Setting aside the question about the unusual roof treatment, does this car have any other features that could not have come off the Cadillac production line? It's clear that the division window and the switches on the rear door could have come from the production line.

I have Self-Starter issues back to early 80s, and quite a few more from the 70s. Have we ever before seen a report on a model like this? I do recall seeing Derhams from that era.  I wish I had time to look. It will be fascinating to see what information turns up here in the Forum. If this car really came off the Cadillac line, and is unmodified, that would be an exciting development. How to document? ....
John Emerson
Middlebury, Vermont
CLC member #26790
1952 Series 6219X
http://bit.ly/21AGnvn

Caddy Wizard

The car is a 50, not a 51.  About two years ago this car (or one very similar to it) was offered for sale to me.  It was represented to me that the car offered to me was a limo coachwork on a 60S chassis.  Supposedly made for a GM exec (or Caddy exec, I forget which).  The car needed a full resto and inasmuch as it might be a historically significant car, a careful one at that.  I passed in favor of more pedestrian (and cheaper) Cadillac pursuits.
Art Gardner


1955 S60 Fleetwood sedan (now under resto -- has been in paint shop since June 2022!)
1955 S62 Coupe (future show car? 2/3 done)
1958 Eldo Seville (2/3 done)

Bob Schuman

As Art says, the car is a 1950, not a 51, as evidenced by the data plate. But the dash is definitely 51, not 50, as are the taillights. Regardless who built it, why use a 51 dash in a 1950 model?
Just more questions, I have no answers.
Bob Schuman, CLC#254
Bob Schuman, CLC#254
2017 CT6-unsatisfactory (repurchased by GM)
2023 XT5

Davidinhartford

#8
 

Looks like a 51 front end to me.   Note the cross hatched detailing under the headlamps.
The 51s had bigger "Dagmar" bumper guards.

Below is a 50 front view;

Davidinhartford

Could be that by the time all the coachwork was done the 51s were on the way out and the car was updated with 51 parts.

Walter Youshock

Whatever it is, I really like it.  Has an early 1956 Sedan deVille look about it. 
CLC #11959 (Life)
1957 Coupe deVille
1991 Brougham

harvey b

Is the body number 10,282 how many did they make in 50' could have been a leftover made into a 51'. Myself I like the shape of the roof,kind if has a dick tracy cartoon look to it?Either way it looks like a well built car,I hope someone can get to the bottom of this.It looks like there are 3 buttons on the window switches,what would they be for?.could they also move the front windows from the back.Harvey
Harvey Bowness

Walter Youshock

I noticed that as well.  My guess is one is for each rear door window and the third is for the partition.
CLC #11959 (Life)
1957 Coupe deVille
1991 Brougham

Brian Laurance

#13
While I cannot add any knowledge of this particular car, I can, perhaps, lend credence to the comments that this car might have been built entirely by General Motors for a GM executive.

Here is the 1952 Buick Roadmaster limousine that GM purportedly built entirely in-house for Harlow Curtice, who ascended in 1953, I believe, to the presidency of GM.  The roof and rear window treatment appear quite similar to the Cadillac in question.






Alan Harris CLC#1513

It would be interesting to see interior photos of the Harlow Curtice car and compare them to the interior of this Caddy.

Brian Laurance

Okay, Alan, here's what I've found for the Harlow Curtice limousine interior:

Rear compartment:



Driver's compartment:


Bob Hoffmann CLC#96

Brian,
I think you nailed it. I think it was a late 50 car that got completed on the line & sent to the "shop" for mods. It probably has a SO tag on the cowl.
In this case it is a "shop order" as opposed to a "special order". I HOPE we don't have to get into a long drawn out discussion on the difference between the 2 SO's...If anyone has questions on the subject, I suggest a search as it's been discussed to death in the last few years.
It's a real shame that so many of the sellers of these type of cars have to be so uninformed &  caught up in previous & their own hype. Also an anal & secretive attitude.
I guess there's no one close to the car???
Brian, THANKS for posting.
Bob
1968 Eldorado slick top ,white/red interior
2015 Holden Ute HSV Maloo red/black interior.
             
Too much fun is more than you can have.

Brian Laurance

Bob, thanks for your comments, and I hope it helped.  Since the Buick was known to be a GM exercise, I think it brings clarity to the origin of the Cadillac.

By the way, my understanding is that GM retained ownership of the Buick until 1988, after which it was sold into private ownership.

Tom Gibson

#18
I've been researching this car and the Harlow Curtice Buick for some time, and here's the skinny on the Cadillac from the Heritage Center...

"This Cadillac, 506074429, was built for General Motors executive Albert Bradley.  At the time it was ordered, Bradley was an executive vice president and chairman of the Finance Policy Committee for General Motors.  When Alfred Sloan retired in 1956, Bradley became the Chairman of the Board and served until August 31, 1958 when he retired.  His career at GM began in 1919 and continued to be on its board of directors until 1972.  Here is a link to his bio: http://history.gmheritagecenter.com/wiki/index.php/Bradley,_Albert

As ordered, the car was a 1950 Cadillac Fleetwood 60 Special Sedan.  It was painted black (1) with a blue broadcloth interior (63).  Extra equipment included: windshield washers, license plate frames, four wheel discs and passenger side mirror (Accessory Group B); Radio - Synchro-matic with antenna and speakers (JU); Heater (B); and royal white wall tires (RW).  The car was sent to Styling Section for enhancements after assembly."

The above came from Christo Datini of the Heritage Center, who included a scan of the car's build card for my personal research. It was delivered to Bradley at GM's Columbus Circle HQ in NYC, and Mr. Datini stated, "While I have Styling pictures of other Cadillacs built for Mr. Bradley (1948, 1949, 1952, 1957), I do not have pictures of this particular car that would have been at Styling in October/November of 1950."

Bradley was a fascinating character who lived in a huge manor home in Greenwich, CT. You'll see him prominently featured in the big  LIFE Magazine article on GM, circa 1952, but he seems to be overlooked by historians. Who knows whether he commuted to the city in his company car(s), or was picked up at the station; either way, what a way to arrive at work! 

As for the ebay sale, it's too late to change the listing's flowery description as bids have been made, but the seller could add the info I sent two days ago to the bottom of the listing. Let's see if he does, or stays with the Harley Earl/ Alfred Sloan puffery. I pointed out that the Tech Center didn't open till '56, but it's quite possible that at its disposal the car's transaction was made through the Tech Center where the car may have resided, neglected for years.

Since the last time I saw the car, the leather top has been added and it's been given a good cleaning. It is believed that Styling grafted the rear roofline of a Cadillac 75 aft of the B-pillar to the car and made the unique rear door window trim, a treatment also done to the Curtice Buick that Brian shared above. The Buick began life as a '51 (with a '51 serial number), but wears '52 trim and is registered as a '52. I've photographed the Buick at its home in a huge collection in suburban Detroit, and it has no Data Plate on the cowl (we looked and looked). I was at the 2009 RM Meadow Brook auction when the current owner acquired the Buick for @ $48K, less than half of its selling price of $110K at the RM Amelia auction in 2007. Fell in love with that roofline and the car's unique interior and history, then learned of the Caddy and the research began.

The Cadillac is beautiful and unique with a rich history, but having no title is going to hurt its sale. Still, I hope it finds a good home.

Tom Gibson

Barry M Wheeler #2189

I hate to say it, but the Buick is much better looking with the design changes better integrated into a whole. Some of the Cadillac seems to have change done merely for changes sake.
Barry M. Wheeler #2189


1981 Cadillac Seville
1991 Cadillac Seville