Advice on Potential Long Distance Purchase (59' Sedan)

[nick7764]

Hello,

Bit of a newbie here!  As a quick introduction, I'm a 23 year old guy who loves vintage everything... I've owned several vintage cars, with an affinity towards vintage microcars.  My current baby is a mostly restored 1956 BMW Isetta. 
With that being said, I occasionally jump to the opposite end of the spectrum, and appreciate bigger, more dramatically styled cars.  A few years ago I owned a 61' Imperial which I do miss...  I have always kept an eye out for a 59' Cadillac, as it has long been one of my dream cars....
I definitely prefer older original cars, and have recently found one I am seriously considering. 

I would love to get some advice on a purchase I am considering...  It is a 1959 Sedan, I believe a series 62?  The seller never specified the model, and I am fairly new to Cadillacs so am not 100% familiar with all the identifying features of different trim levels.  The car is an older, mostly original car, around 60,000 alleged original miles.  Interior looks very good, no rips or tears.  Dash does have crack, a little worn looking.  Paint is faded, black, possible original?  The whole car is somewhat worn, but I love the patina...my goal would be to maintain and repair it as is....
Car was last on road a couple years ago, so has been sitting.  It does run and drive according to seller however, with very solid underbody.  Tires and wheels are being replaced with appropriate ones.  I believe I can get it for $7500-$8000 ish.

With that being said, I am in Upstate NY and the Caddy is 1400 miles away in the deep south!  I am planning on flying out to see the Caddy this coming weekend.  If it is as described, I would like to buy it, fly back, and have it professionally hauled (I have a shipping quote for 1k).

I would love some advice on long distance purchases however...  This would be significant purchase for me, and I want to make sure I protect myself from getting scammed in any way...  The buyer mentioned he wanted cash...  Is it reasonable to think a certified check will suffice?  I will not be driving or trailering the car away right when I buy it, so some sort of paper trail would make me feel much more comfortable.  Even if he hands me the title, there's just something off-putting about handing someone 8k in cash without a car to show for it!  But maybe I'm being paranoid...  As a seller, I understand the concern over fraudulent checks, but as a buyer I want to protect myself...

I've even thought maybe I could find someone on here in that area I could pay to store the Caddy for a week or two, after purchase, until it gets picked up by shipper.  Not sure what the best game plan is...

[Two Crabs]

I would have a local attorney in your area recommend an attorney in that town that can act as an escrow account holder.
He can release the funds (cash or otherwise) to the seller upon the car being loaded onto a car hauler.
It will cost you a couple of hundred but it is the safest way to go.

I have bought several long distance boats this way.

Also get the vin number first and have your local Police Dept run the number to ascertain the possibility  of it being stolen.

You can also query the that states "Secretary of the State " for any "UCC lien" or encumbrances on the car.
As soon as you own it, insure it!!!!!!!!!!!

[okccadman]

Looks like a decent car that will clean up well.  It is a Series 62 6 Window sedan with power windows, a/c and autronic eye.  If I am seeing correctly, it has a radio delete cover plate.  That is very unusual.  I would bet it is a repaint because the small crests are not on the front fenders and the cloth appears to have been re inserted in the seats.  The 70s wire hubcaps have to go though.

[76eldo]

That's always a sticky issue.  I completely understand the seller not wanting to take a check, but a cashier's check that is allowed to clear is safe.  He may have other reasons for only wanting cash other than worrying about being scammed.

Although the previous poster makes a good point about an escrow situation, I guarantee that the seller will view this as an attempted scam and you will lose the car.  Same thing with a bank wire transfer.  I have lost cars trying to explain to an unknowing seller how a wire transfer works.  The minute you tell them you need their bank info they freak out if they are unfamiliar with the process.

Regarding your concern about paying for the car and leaving it there until pick up, that's a valid concern as well.

I do purchasing and acquisitions for a broker in Norway several times a year, and they always want the car removed immediately under my supervision unless the car is at a car dealership.


I'd also be very concerned about transport.  I see a growing trend with car haulers that usually involves people choosing the lowest price but getting the lowest quality.  Individuals that speak very little English picking up classic cars and treating them like they are hauling salvage to a crusher.

Try to find a mom and pop type car hauler, not a broker who will sub the job out.  Also make sure it's loaded on once and not reloaded at some terminal somewhere before it gets to you.  Most damage occurs when these cars are being taken on and off of a car carrier, especially a huge car like a 59 sedan.

Maybe you can try to find someone from the area that the car is located that can bring it up to you.  Go down there with cash and try to set it up so that the car can be loaded while you are there making the deal.

I have sold many cars that went on a car hauler and the deals were transacted by phone or internet.  I sometimes shake my head when these cars are picked up due to the way the drivers act.  Most have no clue as to what they are hauling and act like it's just an old car so it must be junk.

Might be an adventure to drive it back, is that an option?  My broker friend from Norway has other associates in different parts of the country.  If you want, email me at rachlin@comcast.net and I may be able to get you someone to do the deal for you, inspect it, negotiate, and remove the car and hold it for pick up.

Brian

[nick7764]

okcadman- the seller mentioned it had power windows, but in the photos I see a crank?  Is that for the vent window?  And yes, I agree about the wire hubcaps... Out of curiosity, what makes you think the cloth was reinserted?   
 
76eldo- I'm definitely very concerned about transport.  I used uship to get a quote, and so far Montway Auto Transport has given me the lowest bid of just under 1k.  They seem to have very good reviews, but are indeed a broker.  I messaged them, and they assured me the size wouldn't be a problem, that they had shipped vintage vehicles that size before...  Still, shipping a car this big is a bit worrisome... I will definitely ask the terminal question.

In terms of an escrow situation, one of the things I have found in the forums here was http://www.buyerservicesinternational.com/ which sounds like a similar service...  they have a branch of the co. that offers inspection services as well.  Brian- I will shoot you an email regarding someone down there... 
Of course I love the idea of driving it back, but taking a 50-some year old car whose history I know nothing of is always a bit risky....  I suppose its possible...but I had initially figured if shipping it was only twice the cost of gas, it might be worth it for the peace of mind.

I will call the seller today to see if I can get the VIN...
If I can get a professional inspection, and someone who can safely handle the transaction, I may not even fly down there and put the money towards that...  I just don't want the buyer to freak out in any way...  He's 70+, and I get the impression he doesn't trust much other than cash...

[okccadman]

The cranks are indeed for the vent windows.  Depending on where the car is, i have a few trusted car friends in the South who might be able to check it out and/or reccomend a shipper.  Email me at allante93jj@aol.com.

[nick7764]

In terms of driving it back, the car is also not currently registered.  How would that work?  If I had the title, could I get temporary tags from a DMV down there?

[C.R. Patton II]

Hello Nick

Glad to read you are contemplating the purchase of a1959 Cadillac.

Thus far you have received good advice fron Brian, Jim and Rich. In addition I would have the the vehicle appraised by AAG.  I would also join our CLC national organization and a region near your residence. The research you do BEFORE you purchase can save you DOLLARS later.

[Dan LeBlanc]

Out of curiosity, what makes you think the cloth was reinserted?   
 

Simple.  Velour was not used on 1959 Cadillacs.

[wrefakis]

I am 42-3 on sight unseen high dollar deals, I have always paid the title holder for the car,and insured it as that moment,have never had any problems,as well as have sold many the same way.

cash becomes a problem if the person you pay is not the title holder,the key is title and proof of id,the seller needs to prove ownership or the right to sell and have a paper trail

never ever give anyone cash and accept a title in any other name without back ups,that is where the trouble starts,if you pay the titled owner 99.5% of the time with proof of id you are ok

[Two Crabs]

Have him or her email a copy of the title front and back. Lacking that a copy of the registration papers front and back. Hopefully that proves ownership and a legitimate vin number.

[Jay Friedman]

Nick,

Where is the car in the Deep South?  I live in the Atlanta, Georgia area, own a '49 Cadillac and, if the car is within a reasonable distance, could either give it an amateur inspection myself or have one of two professional old car expert friends inspect it, though they would want to be paid. 

As for a paper trail as mentioned by wrefakis, be aware that here in Georgia the state will not issue a title for a car older than 1963.   All you can get from the buyer is a notarized bill of sale, the car's registration certificate and, if needed, a letter from the state saying titles are not issued for a '59 car.  I believe the same is true in Alabama, though the oldest year for which you can get a title there is probably different from Georgia. 

I agree with you that driving an old car, particularly one that hasn't been driven much lately, is risky.  When I bought my '49, which had been part of a 30 car collection and therefore not driven much, it seemed to run perfectly.  However, when I started out to drive it home 600 miles (Chicago to Atlanta) I hadn't gone very far before both the rear pinion seal and the master cylinder rubber parts failed from lack of use and had "dried up".  Had to call a transport firm to bail me out in a small town in Indiana.   

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Cars remaining in the custody & care of sellers pending transport arrangements is entirely commonplace in the old car hobby. And for transactions well in excess of $8K. That's the least of your worries. If you start talking escrowing of funds, the seller will tell you to go pound sand, pure & simple. Lots of people insist on cash for many valid reasons - or at least valid as far as they're concerned.

Quite frankly, I'd forget worrying about the above: You're flying down to see the car in person and personally meeting the seller - presumably at his residence - and you are wise for taking the precaution of doing so. I see nothing to warrant suspicion as you've described, thus far.

If there's no title, you should obtain a bill of sale in addition to any ownership documents in the owner's possession. The VIN should also be listed on the bill of sale. 

Lastly, FORGET about about driving the car home. Not only is it asking for trouble, but poses a real risk of safety/damage to the car itself, yourself and to other motorists on the 1,400 mile journey. That's a lofty expectation a known sound 50 yo car, let alone one that's been in partial service or out of service for heaven knows how long. Make arrangements with a reputable transporter - as Brian has said, you get what you pay for. Not all are equal in the quality of service.

Good luck. I hope the car meets your expectations. Please keep us informed of any developments.

**Welcome to the CLC forum. I hope you'll consider full membership in the CLC organization as well.

[nick7764]

Yea, I don't think I would be up for a journey like that in a car that I don't know... 

The seller has given me no reason to suspect anything- I just want to cover my tracks.  He says the title is clear, and in his name.  In terms of a reputable transporter, the transporter in questions appears to have good reviews on uship...  the price does seem low, but perhaps that's not bad...?

The car is located in northern Louisiana...  I may have found someone who can inspect it...we will see...

[nick7764]

Alright, thanks to okcadman I have someone going to take a look at the car for me first, before I commit to flying out...  It will be nice to hear from a 3rd party what they think about the car...

By the way, what is going on with the radio?  What exactly is a radio delete cover plate?  Was that an option or an aftermarket alteration?

-Nick

[Alan Harris CLC#1513]

Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, radios were an extra cost option. If you didn't buy a radio with your car, the manufacturer supplied an ornamental plate to cover the hole in the dash where the radio went. Your car appears to have that plate.

It is very unusual in your car because the first owner went for power windows and a/c, which probably added at least $600 to the price of a $5000 car. Usually, the only Cadillacs with the delete plate are funeral vehicle or ambulances.

If your car does not have a hole on a fender where an antenna went, it was a factory delete. If you find evidence of an antenna, somebody removed a radio and added the plate later.

As unusual as it is, I would be loathe to change it.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

The car does appear to have radio delete as witnessed by the blocking plate on the dash which is consistent with missing power antenna escutcheon on the right front fender which does not appear to have a hole. If the radio & antenna were removed at some point, it's more likely the fender hole would have been covered with a plug of some sort which also does not appear to be in evidence in the photo. 

Given the car is black coupled with the manner in which equipped is suggestive that it may well have been ordered for funeral home service.

Although extremely rare to see a standard model car without radio, it's probably more detrimental to value than advantageous.

[okccadman]

I thought funeral car at first but the Autronic eye threw me off of that trail.  Maybe they just didn't like anything but the sound of their Cadillac purring along.

[gary griffin]

Great car Nick,

    A little more advice.  I have also done a lot of old car and old motorcycle deals around the country and abroad.  Cashiers checks are forged so often that Craigslist suggests not accepting them. I have purchased one car from Europe and did it on faith alone and was not disappointed, and I have sold several motorcycles and a couple of cars to overseas buyers without problems either. eBay has guarantees in place and if the seller is of concern have him list it on eBay with a buy it now price, and you will both be protected.

   There are a lot of reasons that cash is desirable for the buyer, such as creditors, ex-wives, or soon to be ex-wives, I R S and so forth. My favorite deal is cash in hand on pick up but that works better with motorcycles. I was considering a purchase and was worried about the seller being flakey and I planned on going down a day early and finding a shop to get the car road ready, paying for it next morning and driving it to the local shop or have it towed there. I would have title and car in hand and out of sellers control at the same time.  On a recent purchase I had a pick up address and I did a google search for (zillow then the address. It brings map location and approximate value of the home). I think the integrity of the seller is the most important thing and this guy was solid. I flew down and bought the car for cash and flew home and arranged transport.  If I had concerns I would have put it in storage (Most towing companies have storage available) and arranged for the transporter to pick it up there. As far as driving it home, I have done that from California to my home in Washington state. Our state issues 3 day permits that I taped to the rear window. I do not know if California or Oregon honors the temporary permits but I took the chance. By the way the last time I rode in an Isetta it was almost new and I was in Germany. Great selection of a classic mini car.

Good luck with the Cadillac  Nick and keep us informed please.

[David King (kz78hy)]

The Horn ring is broken, common problem with this year.

David