Cadillac 500 Sump question

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

G'day all,

I am being lucky enough to be rebuilding more than one 500 engine at the moment, actually playing with three of them.

One thing that I have noticed that each of the three sumps has been oxy-welded in what looks like splits directly under the centre of the rear seal, for a downward distance of approximately 2".

The first one I saw, I thought, okay, there has been a problem with the engine "Blowing up" or something coming loose, as there were a couple of other welded-up spots deeper down.

The same welding, but only on the rear, on the next two has me thinking.

Were these sumps, when being pressed into shape during construction, splitting?   And did this then mean that more than one, actually these three, need welding to stop them being thrown out?

And was this only with the Eldorado Sumps, that have the additional "sump" at the front, and therefore the metal simply couldn't stand being pushed and pressed into the required shape?

By the way, one engine was built in 1971, in my '72, and the other two were on engines that one was 1975, and the other, possibly 1973.

I am curious.

Thanks,

Bruce.

[Tito Sobrinho]

Bruce:

If you found 3 with the same "problem", it had be a poor QC pertaining this particular part by the Cadillac Motor Car division in the early '70s

[TJ Hopland]

All the Eldo pans I have messed with have been like that too.  They all have a kinda hand made look to them.   My theory was that it was kinda a funky shape and it was just more cost effective for them to let em split and fix em than to try and make it so that would not happen. 

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Thanks Fellas,

After seeing the second one, and then the third, I came to the same conclusion.

Where the repairs were done, it sure looked good.   Cadillac tradespersons at work.

The sumps sure went through some contortions to get to the finished shape.

Bruce.

[76eldo]

Interesting. Next time I change the oil in my 76 Eldo I will take a look.
I never noticed this before.

Brian

[TJ Hopland]

I don't ever remember noticing it from the outside.   It was when I had them off I saw it.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Interesting. Next time I change the oil in my 76 Eldo I will take a look.
I never noticed this before.   Brian   

There is not much chance of seeing anything unless the sump is actually removed.

Bruce.

[Roger Zimmermann]

This is not the first time a sump was welded at the factory. Look at this sample: it's from a '56 or '57 Continental Mark II. The reason for that weld is because the oil pan is a Lincoln one, modified because the Continental engine is sitting lower on the frame.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

G'day Roger,

That is one different sump.   But, it was welded at the factory as an original modification.

The Eldorado one appears to be welded because of a "fault" in manufacture.

Bruce.

[TJ Hopland]

I think I remember someone looking at the Eldo one and having the theory that the design was too complicated to be stamped.  I think the idea was that there may have been a cut out in the sheet and once it was stamped the cut out area had to then be either folded by hand or on another machine then brazed up.     Its always the same area but the weld is never in the exact same spot so it seems like it was done by hand. 

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

These welds are definitely done by hand.   And the interesting thing is that one of the sumps had three welded areas, in different parts.

I heard that when the Bumper Bars for the front of the '57 Chevs were made, they were stamped in three separate procedures, they were that complicated.   The California cars had three-piece Bumpers, and the rest of the Country, and the Export models had One-piece Bumpers.

Bruce.

[Tito Sobrinho]

Very interesting about the '57 Chevrolet's bumper bars...I didn't know!

[Bob Hoffmann CLC#96]

I heard that when the Bumper Bars for the front of the '57 Chevs were made, they were stamped in three separate procedures, they were that complicated.   The California cars had three-piece Bumpers, and the rest of the Country, and the Export models had One-piece Bumpers.

Bruce.
[/quote]
Bruce,
Sorry but you are incorrect. The 1957 Ca. cars & exports had one piece bumpers. Here's a paragraph from a 2005 HMN article.  Asked where 1957 Chevys rust, Stone replied, "everywhere." One of the most common areas that rust is behind the headlamps. Mud, moisture and salt rested atop the air intake hoses inside the fenders, and rust formed. He also warns that "convertibles are especially prone to floor rust." Most front bumpers were three-piece units, but even in 1957, California law prohibited this, and all new 1957 Chevys delivered there had a one-piece bumper.
BTW, I have a NOS 70 Eldo pan that has a weld on it.
HTH, Bob

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

G'day Bob,

I had my facts about face re the Bumpers.   I knew that one State had the Single piece ones, and every one that came to Australia had the one-piece ones, and ours came in as CKD's from Canada.

I knew that California did things a bit different, and would be interested to hear the reasons behind the one-piece, as against the three-piece.   But, as this isn't Cadillac-related, we can't discuss it here.

I suppose the next question is, "Did Cadillac solve the Sump-splitting problem?   Or repair each and every one"?

Bruce.