Author Topic: 1941 60S in Data Book  (Read 1986 times)

Offline Barry M Wheeler #2189

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  • Name: Barry Wheeler
1941 60S in Data Book
« on: December 01, 2013, 07:09:55 PM »
I am pretty certain that in the 1941 Data Book, there is a very small picture of a couple of craftsmen working on the right rear of a custom 60S. It is a light color, and has a narrow banded door saddle visible. Has anyone ever seen this car in a full view picture? The door saddle, as I remember it, was somewhat exaggerated, in that it came down quite a bit into the door proper.

For those who may not know what a door saddle is, it is a piece of chrome (usually) going from the front edge of a door to the same position on the rear of the door, parallel to the ground and painted a contrasting color. 1955/56 Mercurys used these to great effect, with many of the same year Ford Crown Victoria Hardtops adding them to give a little extra pizzaz to their car. Those same people often used Mercury station wagon tail lamps as well on the Ford to get a different look. (Sorry about the Ford trivia, Sue.)
Barry M. Wheeler #2189


1981 Cadillac Seville
1991 Cadillac Seville

Offline Doug Houston

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  • CLC Number: 2257
Re: 1941 60S in Data Book
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2013, 10:18:56 PM »
Barry;

I'd like to see a picture of this feature before I could get an impression of what it's all about. I'm pretty familiar with styling features, but this one stops me.
38-6019S
38-9039
39-9057B
41-6227D
41-6019SF
41-6229D
41-6267D
56-6267
70-DeV Conv
41-Chev 41-1167
41 Olds 41-3929

joeceretti

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Re: 1941 60S in Data Book
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2013, 11:26:29 PM »
I'd love to see a picture of it as well.

Offline Barry M Wheeler #2189

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Re: 1941 60S in Data Book
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2013, 08:20:29 AM »
Well guys, I don't have a data book, so I guess I'll have to get one of those copies on eBay. Doug, surely you have one. Check on the 60S section or Fleetwood, and see if you can find it. I believe it's on the RH side, in a circle. There is just enough of the picture to make it very tantalizing. It shows the RH roof quarter panel and some of the RR door that the craftsmen are working on.
Barry M. Wheeler #2189


1981 Cadillac Seville
1991 Cadillac Seville

Offline Terry Wenger

  • Posts: 299
  • CLC Number: 1800
Re: 1941 60S in Data Book
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2013, 08:50:04 AM »
Barry:

My databook is a reprint, but the picture at the bottom of page49 entitled "Detailed Door Finishing"shows a man working on the rt. front door of a 60S. There appears to be a chrome strip going through the door handles like the custom in Cadillacs of the Forties that had been thought to be the Bradley car. The section after the back door is different.

Also, no back window frame shows which could indicate a leather padded top.

Is this the picture you were referring to?

Terry Wenger
Terry Wenger CLC #1800
tewv16@sbcglobal.net
1932 355B TSD
1939 7557
1940 60S
1941 60S
1947 6267 Conv.
1949 6207X Coupe
1963 60S

Offline Barry M Wheeler #2189

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Re: 1941 60S in Data Book
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2013, 11:37:33 AM »
I just ordered a reprint myself, so I'll be able to answer in a couple of days, and find out how my memory is holding up. Thanks, guys.
Barry M. Wheeler #2189


1981 Cadillac Seville
1991 Cadillac Seville

Offline Terry Wenger

  • Posts: 299
  • CLC Number: 1800
Re: 1941 60S in Data Book
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2013, 11:52:38 AM »
All the '41 experts with no data books !!!  After 40 years I finally get a '41 and where am I supposed to get information? I'm glad Bob Schuman had an extra.

Terry
Terry Wenger CLC #1800
tewv16@sbcglobal.net
1932 355B TSD
1939 7557
1940 60S
1941 60S
1947 6267 Conv.
1949 6207X Coupe
1963 60S

Offline Quentin Hall

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Re: 1941 60S in Data Book
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2013, 01:04:35 PM »
It's the middle of the night and I can't steep so I am l looking on the forum. I must be sick. Barry, I enjoyed your story on the Bradley car. I was intrigued about the"top lowering"on the Kettering car. Do you mean it was chopped?? To put it in crude customises terms? Have you got a side profile pic?
       I have a 39 60 spec that was used as a parts car but is a perfect candidate to build a period custom with. I want it to be along the lines of a factory custom so I am exploring all ideas. Did the 38 60spec coupe survive? Q
53 Eldo #412.
53 Eldo #433
53 series 62 conv
39 Sixty Special Custom
57 Biarritz

Offline Bob Schuman

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  • Name: Robert Schuman
Re: 1941 60S in Data Book
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2013, 04:41:00 PM »
Barry,
The closest I can come to matching your description is the photo at the bottom of page 49 of the 1941 Data Book. It shows the right side of a 41-60S with the worker doing something at the RF door. The car body is a light color, with a dark, possibly leather, roof covering. There appears to be a chrome molding running through the door handle, continuing straight forward, and curving up to meet the beltline at the rear of the "C" pillar. This was obviously a custom job, with that molding unlike anything I have seen on any 41, in the metal or in photos.
It would be interesting to see what the whole car looked like, who it was built for, and if it exists. Have you asked Carl Steig about it?
Bob Schuman
Bob Schuman, CLC#254
1951 6137
2017 CT6-unsatisfactory (repurchased by GM)
1948 Olds 98 Custom
2020 XT6

Offline Bob Schuman

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  • CLC Number: 254
  • Name: Robert Schuman
Re: 1941 60S in Data Book
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2013, 04:44:41 PM »
Barry,
My 1941 Data Book is dated 9/13/40, so the car in question was being built on or before that date.
Bob Schuman
Bob Schuman, CLC#254
1951 6137
2017 CT6-unsatisfactory (repurchased by GM)
1948 Olds 98 Custom
2020 XT6

Offline Chris Conklin

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Re: 1941 60S in Data Book
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2013, 04:59:17 PM »
I'm guessing from the description and the date you mentioned that this probably is of no help; here's a scan of the Cadillacs of the Forties page showing the 60 Special interiors. The upper picture shows a chrome saddle.
Chris Conklin

Offline Terry Wenger

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  • CLC Number: 1800
Re: 1941 60S in Data Book
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2013, 09:03:13 PM »
Chris:

The saddles that Barry is referring to are on the exterior of the doors.

Terry Wenger
Terry Wenger CLC #1800
tewv16@sbcglobal.net
1932 355B TSD
1939 7557
1940 60S
1941 60S
1947 6267 Conv.
1949 6207X Coupe
1963 60S

Offline Barry M Wheeler #2189

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  • Name: Barry Wheeler
Re: 1941 60S in Data Book
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2013, 10:31:53 PM »
HI Quentin,

I do believe that the crude 50s custom term was what was done to the roof. I don['t have a full side view as the car is presently four feet in the air, and the restorer is having problems with his hands. (Physically.) As far as I know, either the coupe or the phaeton was involved in an accident. Jack Miller used the rear portion of a 60S top on his pickup truck. I think that 1938 60S coupe was a real jewel, and in '41 guise might be even cooler. Terry, after you finish the sedan, that might help keep you off the streets for a few more years.

As far as I know, Carl did not copy any build sheets except for 1941s. July and August of 1940 was probably a madhouse in the factory given dropping the LaSalle all at once, and getting art work and the clay mock-up finished on the Series 63. I just checked and the printing date on my full-line catalog is Sept. 1, 1940.

Hollis was supposed to have given Ernie Kay all his notes and whatever before his death. Richard Zeiger thinks he may have Ernie's files in some of the papers he got with some of the cars he bought. It would be interesting to rummage through these notes some time.

Hollis had notes about some of the "other" spring colors besides Brava Brown, which I think is the only one that made it into the color charts. The hulk I referred to I saw in Gary, IN on a dismal rainy spring day and didn't have much incentive to take a rubbing of the cowl tag. It was faded, but I believe it was Brava Brown, not Managua Beige. At the time, when I had the details fresh in my mind, the body # wouldn't have matched up with a "spring" production date. The other colors Hollis mentioned to me were another maroon, and a turquoise. I had a hint from someone that the Coker '41 conv. was that color, and that original paint was found on the steering column.  I lost track of the guy who has Glenn Miller's '41 convertible which was Berkshire Green. While I was doing the '41 newsletter, I had a guy in the East mention that he had a convertible with the codes for El Centro Green and Fair Oaks Green on the cowl. He had written in to the S/S in the mimeo days wondering why the two colors on a convertible. He painted it in only El Centro Green.

It'd be nice if someone would forget about Valcour Maroon or black on their convertible and really two-tone it.

I decided that I'd get some of these notes down where they can be shared. Any weird stuff that you guys may remember, you might want to share with the rest of us. Oh, I got confirmation on the "Admiral's" turquoise '41 four door convertible on one end from Hollis, and another source claiming to have seen it at either a retreat or the Admiral's retirement parade. I think that was the car used in the Abercombrie and Fitch TV commercial a few years ago.
Barry M. Wheeler #2189


1981 Cadillac Seville
1991 Cadillac Seville

Offline Quentin Hall

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Re: 1941 60S in Data Book
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2013, 02:01:01 AM »
Here is my preliminary design for my 39 sixty special "custom". Trying to decide if I should make it a lift off hardtop orjust a coupe. My aim is to keep that factory custom look rather than hot rod custom.
53 Eldo #412.
53 Eldo #433
53 series 62 conv
39 Sixty Special Custom
57 Biarritz

Offline Barry M Wheeler #2189

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  • Name: Barry Wheeler
Re: 1941 60S in Data Book
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2013, 07:35:07 AM »
You know, I think you should slip the top on another picture without lowering it and choose between them. This might be one instance of the regular height being better than lowering it. Both would be beautiful.
Barry M. Wheeler #2189


1981 Cadillac Seville
1991 Cadillac Seville

Offline Terry Wenger

  • Posts: 299
  • CLC Number: 1800
Re: 1941 60S in Data Book
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2013, 08:57:11 AM »
Quentin:

Chopped is the term for the lowered tops. The chop used on these cars measures  2 inches. This was done on the  Knudsen and L. Fisher 1940 Sixty- Specials and the Wilson and Kettering 1941 Sixty-Specials, the Sloan 62 Series car and possibly the Fisher Sixty-Specials. Several of the customs had no top lowering, but had the smaller formal rear windows and leather padded covering.

Some of these cars were lengthened 4 to 6 inches also. I believe this was done to increase the rear leg room rather than the styling effect as these cars were division window cars which had less legroom than the normal 60S sedan.

Terry Wenger
Terry Wenger CLC #1800
tewv16@sbcglobal.net
1932 355B TSD
1939 7557
1940 60S
1941 60S
1947 6267 Conv.
1949 6207X Coupe
1963 60S

Offline Quentin Hall

  • Posts: 1447
Re: 1941 60S in Data Book
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2013, 05:23:13 PM »
Good information guys. I am curious to know more aboutthe padded leather tops. Were they leather or leatherette (vinyl). I can't imagine leather holding up to the harsh Michigan climate. In the data book they refer to the leatherhandgrips  on the 53 Eldo. They are definitely plastic. ...but makes good copy.
Don't worry Barry. I have made 4000 photocopies and cut and shut them on the dining room table. Now that I have studied the body style I suspect that the intention was to have multiple body styles available on the Sixty platform.
The windows are parallel from the B pillar back allowing longer and shorter variations. It is still one of my favourite Cadillacs and I am nervous to start cutting. Hopefully I've Bill Mitchell somewhere in the wind guiding my hacksaw hand...hehe.
53 Eldo #412.
53 Eldo #433
53 series 62 conv
39 Sixty Special Custom
57 Biarritz

Offline Terry Wenger

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  • CLC Number: 1800
Re: 1941 60S in Data Book
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2013, 06:06:24 PM »
Quentin:

The leather tops were real Landau leather treated for outdoor usage on cars. This leather was used on all formal sedans of that era. I am not sure if it is still available and most are replaced today with vinyl. The small rear windows were framed in wood and had no outside frame.

I was going to chop the top on mine, but since all the window frames were already plated, glass cut, new weather strip installed etc.when I bought it, the top will remain the standard height.

Terry Wenger
Terry Wenger CLC #1800
tewv16@sbcglobal.net
1932 355B TSD
1939 7557
1940 60S
1941 60S
1947 6267 Conv.
1949 6207X Coupe
1963 60S

Offline Tito Sobrinho

  • CLC # 5246
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  • Name: Tito Sobrinho
Tito S.

1949 CCP 6267X  (First Series)

Thanks to Frank Hershey for its design and thanks to Harry Barr, Ed Cole, John Gordon and Byron Ellis for its engine.

joeceretti

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Re: 1941 60S in Data Book
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2013, 10:53:28 PM »
Thanks Tito,

Is this the shot as discussed?


 

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