Future Engine & Transmission Swap

[90Brougham]

I wanted to ask a question about the topic at hand. I would like to replace the tiring engine and failing transmission in my '90 Brougham. What I would like to do is to either get a 472, or a 500 with transmission, from up to 1971, due to the performance decrease the following years. The reason why I want a Cadillac engine it is a Cadillac, and they produce much more power, and with 4,300 lbs of car to move a weak 307, that at most after 23 some odd years it probably only produces about 120hp which isn't going to cut it. I wanted to know if any of you have done this also, so I could know what I have to do to make this work.

Thanks,
C. Dillon

[Walter Youshock]

Why not a 425 from '77 through '79? 

[90Brougham]

A 425 just doesn't produce enough power for me. I want something that can make my land yacht move, instead of crawling down the road.

[Dan LeBlanc]

Instead of going older, why not newer?  Escalade V8??

[90Brougham]

I am Old school, also I like engines that I can work on myself.

[bcroe]

I am Old school, also I like engines that I can work on myself.   

It would be far simpler to swap in the Olds 403; with the right gears & duals, mine did 0-60 in 7.5 sec. 
An Olds 455 is just a bit tighter, get a 75/76 with HEI that likes unleaded.  Check your axle ratio to see
what trans arrangement works out.  Of course it wouldn't pass missions. 

Or get a 93 with the slightly detuned 'Vette engine.  Bruce Roe

[joeceretti]

When you get the engine and transmission try and get the ownership as well. Re-register it as a 71, then at least around here, you don't have to worry about the emission testing. *This may be bad advice but it is how I would do it.*

[76eldo]

The problem with swapping is the computer.  You can get anything to run in anything, but the cruise control, climate control, and dash displays, as well as shift points and kickdown are all tied into the ECU.

Theoretically, if you drill, tap, and install all of the sensors in an old school 472, it may work.

I'd take advice from Bruce Roe.  He's done it, and knows what he is talking about.

Good luck,

Brian

[90Brougham]

Ah, of course one fact I overlooked, the ECU. For the most part I think I can utilize the vacuum system that a 472 or a 500 had. What I want to do is get a transmission that came with the 472 or 500, I believe a TH-400, this way so I wouldn't have to  around with the ECU, everything else though I can try to figure it out. I would just like to have a V8 that right off the bat produces close to 350-400hp, and 520-550 foot pounds of torque, with no mods. Bruce I respect Oldsmobile engines, but I would like my Brougham, to have a proper Cadillac engine, plus it could be an interesting conversation piece.

Chris

[76eldo]

I'd suggest a 472 engine/ Trans from a 1970 DeVille series.
Freshen it up before installing it.
Www.500cid.com has a lot of parts for these.
Later 500's are smogged down and produce less horsepower.

12 volts to the cool and fuel to the carb will get it to run but all the little things that really make the car a Cadillac will be hard to make function.

Look up the modified chapter of the CLC online. I'm sure there is a lot of answers there.

Brian

[90Brougham]

That's funny I just looked a '70 Deville parts car, with a 472. The little things can be fixed as time goes by.

Chris

[INTMD8]

Instead of going older, why not newer?  Escalade V8??

Agreed.

I am Old school, also I like engines that I can work on myself.

For what it's worth, the newer stuff is very easy to work on. If you had an Escalade engine/trans and were to install it in your car you would send the PCM to be programmed (remove vehicle anti theft and disable codes not related to your vehicle). Upgrade fuel pump. Send out engine harness to be modified for a conversion application.  Wire fan relays. New driveshaft.

Once the engine is dropped in you connect constant power, key on power and ground from the engine harness. 

I know you want to go with an older engine which is fine, just didn't want you to think that going with something newer is exceptionally complicated.

[TJ Hopland]

70 is going to be the only year for a factory high compression 500 and those were only in Eldorados.  68-70 472's were high compression.    Both the 472 and 500 went low compression for 71 (as did everything else made by GM).   Cadillac did it by just putting a massive dish in the pistons.  Other than 'tune' stuff they did not change the overall engine till 74 when they came up with a new head that got low compression with a more typical piston.  75 & 76 all cars but the Seville got 500's, previously only the Eldo's got 500's.  The Seville got a multiport EFI Olds 350.   Basically what this means is with a piston change a 71-73 can basically be built to be at least as good as the earlier ones.  The 74-76 heads will only get you to around 9:1 with fairly flat top pistons.

Another thing you will have to deal with is oil pans.   There are pretty much 3 pans for these engines.  They are generally known as front sump, mid sump, and rear sump 'eldo'.   The 68-76 RWD cars had the front sump which was quite different than most of the rest of the GM's.  I don't think these pans fit in anything but a 68-76 Cadillac.   In 77 when they downsized they went to a little more typical GM style and this one is known as the mid sump.  I believe the 77 chassis was basically what got carried over till they went to the round body in 93.  The 81 was the last car to get the big cad motor (that was down to 368) and I believe that was the same mid sump that came in 77 on the 425's.     The Eldo pans were unique because of the right drive shaft having to get below it.   Basically they are fairly normal in the front then have a notch about half way where the shaft went through then they have a very deep sump.  They have 2 drain plugs because of the notch.   They are popular for a lot of swaps but often end up having to be modified in cars because they hang down too far.   What ever pan you get you also want to get the oil pick up tube to go with it.

The 76 and earlier cars I believe used the extra long tail transmissions and cv joints at both ends of the drive shaft so some drive shaft work will likely be required.  I think the overall length ends up something like 39" vs the 28" you have now.  The rear mount point is the same between the 200 4r and the 400 so at least you have that going for you.

Other tidbits are that many of the engines had smog pumps.  The belt routing did not let you easily bypass it.   70 75 78 were the most common years to find a car with a non smog pulley setup.   500cid.com sells a billet set of pulleys as an option too.  68-73 were points ignition and a dual belt for the AC and PS.   74 was the year that could go either way.  75 was the Hei distributor and a change to a wider single belt to give better clearance from the larger distributor cap so that is yet another variable in finding pulleys.  500cid has a bracket for a Sanden (common aftermarket ac) compressor that works with any intake.  The Sanden compressors come with dual groove so they will work with either setup.  500cid has a aftermarket distributor (mallory?) that won't cause belt clearance issues.

Edelbrock makes an intake for these engines.   Factory intakes got a egr in 73.   Had at least 2 different styles of divorced chokes till 75 when they went electric.

I have bought stuff from Marty at MTS 500cid and been very happy with the service and products.   I try to buy everything I can from them just to keep them around.   Many things that are available elsewhere they are competitive with but they also are having products manufactured for these engines so its nice to keep them around.   There are also things like oil pumps that come out of Melling a little hit or miss that can destroy and engine real quick.  You buy the pump from MTS and they check them and repair if needed.  I have also found that a lot of people list parts for these engines but don't actually stock them or tell you that they don't stock them.  It also turns out that their supplier does not have them either so you end up wasting a lot of time and sometimes having to fight to get your money back.   That won't happen with Marty, if they don't have it they will tell you that. 

A good plan may be to find a 77-79 or even an 80-81 car to get you all the mounts, oil pan, and such since those will be the closest match to your car.   That way you can pick up any 500 and have the parts to fit best into your car.   Don't forget to sell off the parts off the parts cars here.   The 425's do pretty well especially if you put in a better cam and they were something like 100 pounds lighter than the 472/500. 

Only things I remember about such swaps is the 500 exhaust manifolds don't quite fit the newer cars.  They hit the bolts for the upper control arms.  The 425 manifolds were flattened to clear.   Seems like I read you can cut off the bolts and live with very little clearance. 

I had a 90 Olds wagon and I think the cruise control in that ran off its own module that got the speed signal from the speedo rather than taking the signal from the ECU.  Maybe Cad did the same thing with that car?   The Rostra aftermarket crusie's work way better than the vacuum ones anyway so that is always an option.    I believe the climate control works without the ECU. 

         

[Scot Minesinger]

I think the 425 is the best match for lots of engine and good power that is designed to fit in that chassis.  The 425 is nice engine.  Marty at MTS is great to work with.  I buy all my engine parts from them for same reasons as TJ Hopland.  You can install many engines in that car it is just a matter of maximum power for least effort-computer will be a problem.

Good luck!

[35-709]

MTS is Cadillac 472/500/425 only and they know their stuff.  I am running an MTS engine in my '73.

[Walter Youshock]

The frame and dimensions of the car is why I suggested the 425.  It should just drop right in. 

[Scot Minesinger]

The 425 should drop in and be the easiest of all.  The last year of high compression engines was 1970, not 1971.  MTS also supplies parts for the 425.  A properly MTS parted up 425 will perform respectably against any stock high compression 472/500.  MTS may even have a 425 ready for you to install.  Again of course all the computer crap (yes I'm over 50 years old) will be a challenge to deal with.  Forget the trip, mileage calculators computers and the like.  I'm sure you can get climate control to work easily though.   

[90Brougham]

This will probably become a summer project.
After looking at MTS, I will see if they have a 425 ready to go, if not I'll look for one, and build it up from where it is.
Such as:
*Street/Strip Performance Engine Rebuild Kit
*MTS #10 Series  - "The Stealth Cam"
*& other Improvements

I am also going to look for a TH400. The computer will be a problem, but I will try to fix those problems.