Treadle vac trauma! Bleeding info needed.

[Devilledude]

Ive been given the opportunity to get the family owned since new 1957 Sedan Deville back on the road. The car was completely restored in the early 90's but after my grandfather passed the car stayed parked in the garage for the next 23 years. For a few years it was started now and then but once the gas went bad that was the end of that.







Ive replaced the gas tank which was clogged beyond repair, while I was there replaced the non working sending unit. I then rebuild the 4 barrel carb and replaced some cracking fuel line. Now that she runs and is able to move under her own power next to go through is the brakes. Ive inspected all the brakes and everything looks brand new and barely even used! I will replace the rubber lines as a safety precaution as they are over 20 years old and address the frozen brake pedal situation. It seems the pedal was fully depressed and would not return. I removed the power booster which I believe is a vertical mounted treadle vac unit and began to disassemble to find out the condition of the booster. After removing the base plate I found what looks like bread crumbs throughout, maybe water contaminated grease? After cleaning all the grease and bread crumbs out the rubber seals and leather ring look in good shape. The main issue I am having right now is the fact that all the pictures in the shop manual look nothing like the unit I have. Its possible that a different unit was put in at the time of the restoration. This particular unit has 5 metal flaps inside the main piston held in suspension by 3 springs. Im not sure if this "floating valve" should have some kind of grease packing upon reassembly.

Is there anyone that might have any idea what unit I may have?  Ill take some pictures of the unit tomorrow to see if any can recognize what it is and if there are rebuild kits available. BTW I did check Kanters and the kit they have for treadle vac looks nothing like what I would need for my booster.

[Jon S]

Once you post the pictures we will be in a better position to comment.  The car looks beautiful! 

[Devilledude]

Thanks for moving to the correct forum.

After running the part number it comes back to a 1958 Delco.

This looks like the kit but I dont see the large rubber o ring under the triple spring assembly

http://www.cadillacpartsltd.com/19demopobrbo1.html





On a restoration standpoint, to be correct I would have to get either a hydrovac unit or the Bendix Treadle?







Here are some exploded views of the booster

























The large rubber "diaphragm" in the center looks lumpy due to all the contaminate surrounding it even after it was cleaned. This is the item I do not see in the rebuild kit above. Is there another kit I need separately?











This area was completely filled with the caramel bread crumb contaminate, it clogged the tube and filled the rubber hose that lead out to the manifold vacuum port. 

Is that center piece a press fit or is it supposed to "float"?





Wondering if the "stuff" is dried out brake fluid?


Anyone know a source/size for the spanner wrench needed to service the master?

[Roger Zimmermann]

Indeed, this is strange...'57 cars don't have this kind of master cylinder/booster; only 56 and 58 models had them. The brake system for 1957 was similar to the one used for 1954 and 55.
Of course, this does not answer your question...

[Devilledude]

Thanks, what system would that be for 54/55? Hydrovac?

Anyone have any tips on the source for the missing parts or assembly?

[Walter Youshock]

'57 was the last year they used the Bendix HydroVac, with the exception of the 1958 Eldorado Brougham.  It had a larger vacuum chamber than the earlier versions and was the only one mounted to the firewall of the car.  The master cylinder was mounted to the frame.  I'd like to see how this modification was done with your car.  You would need the correct booster and master cylinder at the very least.  If this tredle vac is mounted on the cowl blister, some modification may have been done to the mounting holes as well, OR the cowl blister could have been replaced with a '58...

Can you give us the vin of your car?  I wonder if it was a very late '57, but I've never heard of a tredle vac in a '57 from the factory.

The HydroVacs are complicated and have dozens of springs, seals and check balls.  I'd never attempt to rebuild one myself.

[Devilledude]

Here a pic of the firewall and Trim plate







Unfortunately I cannot find the vin on the body/frame. Looks like the "professional" shop that performed the restoration removed the tag on the B pillar and never replaced it. The engine was also rebuilt and when the block was machined the number was lost. Ive tried to find the frame VIN on the passenger side but due to the AC compressor and multiple lines mounted on the top of the frame rail I cannot see any numbers.  Anyone have any pics of where it should be? Are there any reproduction B pillar plates available?

The VIN on the registration is 5762011567 so looks to be an early 57, on the registration  it states yr sold to be 1956 but model year 1957

The back story on the car is my grandma won the car in a supermarket raffle while living in MO. They drove the car for 30 years then began the restoration once grandpa retired. The car was originally Glade/Thebes green but grandpa always wanted a black car so it got a complete repaint with beige interior.

I could not find any trim tag decoders to see what the other codes are (EHKY). It currently has auto trans, power steering, power brakes, power windows and air conditioning.

Is the booster mount an add on?

[Coupe Deville]

E: Ez-Eye Glass
H: Heater
K: Air Conditioning
Y: Six Way Power Seats

That is a very nice car and a cool story.

-Gavin

[Walter Youshock]

With the body plate still riveted to the cowl, that's the one that came with the car, not off a '58.  The booster bracket is different.  The bracket for the HV actually holds the booster together as 4 carriage bolts run through the bracket with 4 nuts holding the front cover to the vacuum chamber.  Whatever was done here had to be done when the color of the car was changed.  Maybe they were having trouble with the HV and decided to replace it with the TV.  The HVs can be problematic especially if they get contaminated with water.  They operate by forcing brake fluid through the hydraulic chamber which moves a valve allowing vacuum into the booster.  If it gets gunked up, the booster has to be rebuilt or replaced.  This could have been swapped for economic or safety reasons.  It looks like a very thorough paint job.  Did they also spray the underside of the trunk lid?

This is an earlier car.  Possibly March or April. 

[Jon S]

It definitely is a 1958 Treddle-Vac setup.  The firewalls on most 1958's were black (or should be), so there was no re-painting done there.  As to rebuilding it, it appears to be a Delco Moraine unit; not a Bendix.  The 1958 repair kit should be all you need.

[Devilledude]

The family has always complained about the brakes even when new. Dad made it a point to tell the resto shop to make sure the brakes work well. I dont think cost was an issue for the restoration so I am really wondering why the change, is a TV more reliable than HV? I did see one invoice that said "replace booster" with a charge of  2 hours labor and $325 for the booster, nothing else mentioned. I looked over all the receipts for the resto and it seems the car was rust free and no metal work other than regular body work was performed. I poked around with a pic to see if there were any "soft spots" in the floor boards or trunk and all is SUPER solid. Apparently the car was always garaged, never driven in snow or wet weather and was babied all its life.

The car was totally disassembled for paint, I originally thought it was a black car due to total coverage until I decoded the trim plate.

[Jon S]

I have changed my 1958 booster 3 times and 2 hours is about how long it took.  A rebuilt unit with exchange is still about $325, so those prices appear correct.  The BIG question is how/when did a 1958 unit replace the 1957 unit.

[Walter Youshock]

Jon,  this car is a '57.  In '57, the firewalls were body color.  The car was green from the factory and later repainted black.

[Jon S]

Jon,  this car is a '57.  In '57, the firewalls were body color.  The car was green from the factory and later repainted black.

Walter -

I didn't know the 1957 firewalls were body color.  Looking at the firewall picture above, I see a few nicks with rusty centers, but no green around the edges.  I know I have seen too many 1958's restored with body colored firewalls, but most (not all) came from the factory black like mine. 

[Devilledude]

Finally got it all back together with new soft lines, rebuilt booster/master, new wheel cylinders and hardware. Now the problem, no pedal. Bled it several times no air in the system but still feels like a huge bubble in there somewhere. Since my 57 manual doesnt have any bleeding instructions for the TV is there any special procedure I need to follow? I noticed a large bleeder valve on the top of the master, does this need to be bled as well?

[jenasp]

Hello.First connect a clear tube from the master bleed valve and run it back to the reservoir. Open the bleeder and pump the pedal until there is no air bubbles visible in the tube. Then you can go on and bleed the rest of the system as usual. J Aspen.