Noisy lifters on my 346

[joeceretti]

Finally got my rad today so was able to get the engine up to normal operating temp.

This is an engine that was rebuilt a little more that 3 years ago and then sat. A few weeks ago, I was started the engine and the lifters were noisy. So I pumped some oil manually up to the lifters and started it and all seemed good. Now, I started it and it was quiet and then slowly became louder. I have confirmed the pressure at the outlet from the block that goes up to the lifters and it's 30psi.

This video is with the engine warmed up to normal operating temperature. I have 30 weight with zinc in it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwN_vlRWes4

Not really certain where to go from here and don't want to make a wrong move.

EDIT: I need to add. This engine sat upside down on an engine stand for a few weeks. Also, it sounds MUCH worse in the video than it does to the ear. To my ears I just hear a distinct clicking. The camera really seems to amplify the noise. I didn't hear any other abnormal noises at all. No clunks or sounds like bearings not getting enough oil. If I had heard anything other than the clicking of the lifters I would have not let it warm up.

[las39]

Don't want to start another oil topic, but have you tried multigrade 20-50W oil? I use it in all my cars.

[harry s]

Joe, Never hurts to experiment with different grades of oil but I think the problem is mechanical. Your oil pressure is 30# at the line to lifter connection so the next step would be to make sure the oil is getting to and circulating through the lifters. I would take the valley covers off loosen the oil feed lines, crank the engine to check the flow. If that checks out the next step would be to to check the three mechanical areas; measurement from cam foot to valve stem (3" exactly), presence of upper valve holders and operation of lifter check valves. I know it is a PITA to remove the top end but with your engine exposed you can take the exhaust manifolds off as an assembly and also the intake which makes it a little easier. If new lifters were installed at the rebuild the check valves could be inoperable from old packing. The best way to check is to disassemble each one, clean and shake to see if check valve is free. Good Luck   Harry

[Jon S]

Not to belabor the ZDDP topic, but did you add ZDDP to your oil?

[35-709]

"This video is with the engine warmed up to normal operating temperature. I have 30 weight with zinc in it."

[Bill Ingler #7799]

Joe: I agree with Harry and from the sound of the lifters, it is mechanical. I had this happen on my 47. Fortunately it was only 2 valves but it was valve stem length. 3 inches between the end of the valve stem and the heel of the cam lobe is critical. Not less nor more than, exactly 3 inches. Make yourself a T tool, the top of that T at 3 inches which then can be slipped between the cam lobe and the end of the valve stem for your measurement of each valve.      Bill

[las39]

Joe: I agree with Harry and from the sound of the lifters, it is mechanical. I had this happen on my 47. Fortunately it was only 2 valves but it was valve stem length. 3 inches between the end of the valve stem and the heel of the cam lobe is critical. Not less nor more than, exactly 3 inches. Make yourself a T tool, the top of that T at 3 inches which then can be slipped between the cam lobe and the end of the valve stem for your measurement of each valve.      Bill

And what is the solution if it differs either way?

[harry s]

If the gap is too short you dress the valve stem, if the gap is over 3" you must replace the valve and start the measurement process over.   Harry

[Jon S]

Not a 346 expert, but the noise sounds consistent throughout; not like one or two noisy lifters/valve trains.

[las39]

If the gap is too short you dress the valve stem, if the gap is over 3" you must replace the valve and start the measurement process over.   Harry

Thanks 

[Steve Passmore]

It is possible to take very small amounts out of the seats if the gap is too large but you have to be very careful not to alter the profile. The 346 seats have 3 different angles cut in them from the factory and sadly many rebuilt engines don't have that luxury and get cut right out in one single angle.

[joeceretti]

Thanks for the comments and help. It really does sound like all the lifters are making noise. I drove it around today for a bit and it didn't blow up. That's good. No bad noises except the annoying clicking. Plenty of power even though I didn't push it at all. If it doesn't either quiet down or blow up in my next few easy drives I will pull the cover off and check the things mentioned here.

I know oil is at least getting up there because I was able to pump a quart and a half of oil into the top end.

It seems logical to me that the check valves could easily be stuck from the engine sitting for years unstarted.

I will add something to the oil to try and dissolve anything causing them to stick.

Trying to do the least invasive steps first, as long as I am not going to blow the engine.

[joeceretti]

In any case, here's were I stopped for a photo on today's drive.

[Tom Beaver]

Joe, the measurement of 3" between the cam lobe and the valve stem assumes that you have a new camshaft and a new set of lifter bodies.  Since new lifter bodies are no longer available, to my knowledge, engine rebuilds may well use resurfaced lifter bodies and/or a reground cam which means that the 3" measurement needs to be adjusted for how much metal was removed from the various surfaces.  I prefer to place a collapsed hydraulic insert in the lifter body (remove the return spring), place the assembly in a guide block and measure the clearance between valve stem and collapsed hydraulic insert.  Set the clearance at 0.070", which is half of the total travel for the hydraulic plunger.  It's a bit more tedious this way but it eliminates uncertainties in the assembled valve train.

Also, since your lifters are quiet when the engine is cold I would experiment with an oil which is more viscous at operating temperature like 20W-50.  All of the new hydraulic inserts are made in China and depending on where and who made them the clearances may not be exact.  I put a new set in my engine and had the same characteristics you describe using 10W-30 oil.  I changed to 20W-50 and the noise seems to have gone away.

Tom Beaver 

[harry s]

The last set of new lifters I installed were NOS military surplus dated Sept 1945 which were packed in cosmolene. It was very tedious removing the wrapping and then cleaning the parts. I used brake clean and then alcohol along with air to remove residue. Once the movement of the check valves were verified I put oil directly into the plunger. If memory servers me the manual calls for filling the plunger holder about a third of the way full with oil then inserting the plunger. This procedure helps to eliminates the air in the lifter oiling system. The .070 measurement of the collapsed lifter is another way of checking the clearance. Another thing to check is the valve spring tension.   Harry

[joeceretti]

Ok, good news for me. It was just gunked up ball bearings. Now the question I have. How the H3LL can In reinstall the lifter block without taking the head off? I need to push the valves up and out of the way. I am thinking a clamp reversed to push the valves out of the way.

EDIT: After some more thought I think I can just use a regular wood clamp up on the top of the casting and push the valves up that way.

[Steve Passmore]

You can turn the engine over till theres only about one lobe on the cam thats lifted then in each bay in turn,  theres a special tool like a plate that fits in below the valve heads and you press the block in under it. I made up my own tool by shaping a small steel plate.

[harry s]

A spackle blade will work. Find the one that is the riglht width. If you start by getting the first lifter in place with the block at a slight angle then use the blade between the remaining valve stems and lifters to slide the block the rest of the way in. As mentioned, be sure the cam lobes are in the proper position turning for each block.     Harry

[Paul Phillips]

Joe
You may need to derive a tool to do this, but it works with head off.  Rotate crank until each valve is opened. Place a piece of compressible rubber under the valve head while open, then rotate thru to the next until all valves on that bank are floating on the rubber. You should now have clearance go install the lifter quad unit. Pull the rubbers, reinstall the head.

Hope thus helps

Paul

[joeceretti]

Thanks for the tips. I cranked the engine until I hit that sweet spot where 3 valves were closed and one was just a tiny bit open and wrestled the block back in place. Everything is back together and it still runs   . I didn't clean the other 3 blocks. I am sure the oiling system will clean the gelled oil out of the others in short order. The balls weren't really all that stuck so I am sure that in the check valves is the same gelled oil that was in the oil pan.

It was very nice to see the camshaft and that the surfaces are nice and shiny smooth as a newly rebuilt engine should be.