38-41 60S Wood Sills

[Paul Phillips]

For those who may have wondered what this 'wood sill thing' is all about, I have just put together the replacement sills for my 41, and took a comparison shot, along with one of the new individual parts.  The car looked good and drove well 'before', but the original sills were in fact significantly deteriorated.  The originals looked even worse after they were removed, as parts of them crumbled as they were handled.  Front of the car is nearest the camera in the comparison shot, to the left on the replacement parts.  Worst was the right side sill, with a big missing section at the B pillar, and a smaller bite gone at the A pillar; both had issues at the rear wheelhouse area.  The extensions at the rocker were both rough on the outer side

Virtually nothing was simple square cuts, there are contours, multiple bevel angles, etc.  These cars required a lot of skilled craftsmen to consistently produce such complex parts.  Each side has the main sill, an upper filler (ramped piece) that goes under the front floorboard, and a lower filler piece for the rocker.  There are also extensions (not shown) to provide the step under the fender extension on the door.  These parts are about 78" long and average about 7.5" in width.  Thickness ranges from about 1.5" to 3".  Add another 2.375 for the lower (rocker) fillers.  Originals were oak, but I am replacing with ash, as it is tighter grained and slightly stronger.  New wood is waterproofed with a penetrating epoxy product.  Originals were supposed to be waterproofed per the factory drawing (thanks Barry!), but it obviously didn't last well.  All hardware for the replacements will be stainless.

It really is possible to replace the wood on these cars, so don't let that be a reason not to 'save' one.  But be careful if you are looking to buy one and ask to inspect the wood with a sharp tool (i.e. ice pick or similar) to be sure it is solid, otherwise plan on the potential of replacement.

Looking forward to getting these on the body this week and getting it off the rotisserie!

Paul

[Barry M Wheeler #2189]

A few days after my car was shipped, there was a running change for the step plates under the rear front fender extension. Evidently, some heavy owners had been stepping on the extension which was originally attached with a one sided (top) "z" shaped bracket. Stepping on it heavily and regularly might have induced a pronounced droop in the stainless under the front door. This would have ruined the horizontal visual effect and make the car look damaged.

I haven't seen one of the newer brackets for some years, but it was arranged to be stronger and alleviate this problem. So should you ever see "both" brackets, this is the reason for the change.

My car had salvageable body sills with minor rot. But, the rocker panels were completely gone as were the step plate wood. Carl Steig had a sail boat restorer friend make two sets. I would have hated to try and make these out of that hard wood. They are almost all in at present. Nice presentation, Paul.

[Smedly]

Looks good Paul.
So my question would be what year did Cadillac stop using wood sills?
Sheldon Hay

[Barry M Wheeler #2189]

This was it. 1941.

[Paul Phillips]

Thanks for the nice comments!  My car was produced in March 41 and incorporated the modification Barry describes for the step plates.  It was fairly significant, replacing what was done before mostly in wood with gussetted steel angle brackets under the sills to reinforce the ones on top, along with some hefty mating brackets on the step itself.  Those parts go on tomorrow, and I will add an updated photo to the thread.  Extension sills for the steps come later, after the body is painted.

Paul

[Glen]

Are the factory drawings available for a 1938 75 series?  Where would one find those drawings? 

[Paul Phillips]

Glen
I will let Barry or others jump in on what/where might be available for your car.  I was unaware of the 60S drawing and had reverse-engineered a lot of this before a conversation with Barry revealed he had a copy, which he graciously loaned me in exchange for a CLC Museum donation.  I hope there is a source for you.

Paul

[Barry M Wheeler #2189]

Sorry, I doubt that there are plans for your coupe. I would get hold of owners of the cars listed in the directory and see if they could help.

[Chris Bryant #19358]

Hello folks,

I have owned a 48 60S for many years and soon the body will be lifted off the frame and my sills will be replaced. I was very lucky that Pat Comesky loaned me a set to bring back to Ottawa for duplication by my local carpenter. He was teaching carpentry during the winter and had access to all the shapers and planes he could desire. I took the originals back to Pat and now hope that Cadillac's legendary parts interchangeability will be sufficient. I picked up the need for waterproofing here and will do it, so thanks for that!

The sills are made from ash as well and do you folks have any further comments about my expectations of a good fit? I have printed this post and keenly await the photos of the later models of bracketry.

Cheers,

Chris Bryant #19358

[Paul Phillips]

Hi Chris
I hope that was a typo and your 60 is 1938, the 1948 will be an all steel body!

Here are a few early shots of the metal bracketry for the step extension.  Missing are (2) #12 screws for the lower brackets, need to pick them up today.  I will try to get some shots posted as well of things after they are mated to the body.  The small holes seen in the upper extension (ramp) are pilots for the nails, the larger for the wood screws - both of these fastener types are found under the front threshold plate (and elsewhere, just not in the picture).  The sealer I used was called CPES (clear penetrating epoxy sealer), popular in restoring wooden boats.

There are a lot of nuances on these sills, so hopefully your carpenter picked up on them.  Perhaps the most complex is the upper filler 'ramp', which is a bit like a topographic map of rolling terrain!  The bevel on the outer 3 1/2" or so of the main sill is critical so the bottom of the sill will sit parallel to the frame mount points, and it also projects on a part of the upper filler.  One of the lateral channels under the seat requires a flat pocket, but the other one requires an angled pocket.  The lower extensions (rockers) have multiple bevel angles and they actually change during the length of the part - most of this is about providing clearance for the stainless trim - the critical part is enough clearance, then having the right attachment surface at the bottom.  The step extensions are a whole different animal & I will save trying to put them in words for another time.  Key point to remember - I have a scan of Barry's drawing, so if you end up needing that info, work a deal with him and I can get you a pdf file. 

When you begin to remove your sills, remember that these provide much of the structure for the body.  If you are planning on putting it on a rotisserie, I would suggest you build a cage inside the body while it is still on the frame so everything is stable.  If you are going to do one side at a time while still on the frame, consider at least removing doors, seats, etc to reduce the load and potential deflection.  You will find probably 100's of small nails that were used to initially hold the metal to the wood, and in some cases there will be metal welded over the lowest sheet and the nail heads.  Existing threaded fasteners will likely be seized, especially in the tee nuts, so plan to cut some things apart with a die grinder.  Post back if you have questions or run into something.

Good luck!
Paul

[Chris Bryant #19358]

Hi Paul,

Yes, that was a BIG typo! Your advice is great and the plan is in the works to strip out and brace the car with  a cage. I have already bought a trolley to put the car on with standoffs at the body mount points. If necessary we will get a rotisserie into the job. The chap I have hired to do the job is a go-getter and will let me help too, because I am  a stickler for accuracy and enjoy doing body work myself even though the last time was over 30 years ago. My stamina is limited these days but I should be able to put in 2 or 3 hours a day.

I wonder if you would be so kind as to email your pictures to me? The carpenter who created the sills pretty well picked up the nuances but I WILL check.

Are you coming to the GN in Lake George? I know it is rather far away from your home state but for once I have the luxury of a 3 hour trip just over the border from me.

Barry Wheeler: Are you coming to the GN? It may be a bit far for you but I have always been grateful when you chime in with your information.

Best wishes to you both,

Chris Bryant #19358

[Chris Bryant #19358]

Hi Paul,

No need to send pictures after all! I just left-clicked the picture to enlarge it as usual, then tried a right-click with my mouse, chose Print Picture.. from the option list and presto, a very large full-colour picture came out. I knew 40 plus years of IT was useful after all!

Cheers,

Chris Bryant

[Paul Phillips]

Chris
Sounds like you are on a good path!  One other thing to watch for is the condition of the metal above the sills.  It appears to have been unprotected, and when sitting on wet wood, a lot of pitting happens.  This created quite a chase for me, as sandblasting the body opened up some small holes, and welding them, even with a copper backup paddle, sometimes still wanted to blow thru.  Then the grinding smooth would rattle out corroded material in other pits and make new holes.  Once we got things structurally sound, we used a filler on the underside for the remaining pits, made from SMC adhesive and fiberglass 'cat hair', then sealed with epoxy primer.

I am happy to share any of my other photos that could help.  Please send a PM and we can exchange direct email addresses (I hate to publish that on a public forum).

I am planning to be at the GN, though the 41 will not be ready.  I am currently planning to trailer the 49, which is a nice driver but not a showpiece.  Would love to chat there about more details of your project.

Thanks
Paul

[Barry M Wheeler #2189]

Hi, Gay and I plan to be at Lake George and take the lower tier route from Jamestown east. I was told by a B&B operator in Jamestown that there are NO tolls and it's a lot nicer route. On the way home, we will travel down I-95 to Bethesda and see my cousin again, then down to Richmond for a couple of days with my son. I'm looking forward to trying out the sports mode on the suspension on the ATS on I-77 from Beckley to Charleston. That is usually the forty minutes I dislike the most on the whole trip home from VA as it's quite curvy.

[Chris Bryant #19358]

Hi Paul,

You've given me great news! Yes, I'll PM you. I don't like publicizing email addresses either. Looks like Barry Wheeler is attending too!

I am sure the GN will great and better for meeting you two!

Cheers,

Chris

[Paul Phillips]

Chris
Thanks for the PM, looking forward to meeting at the GN.

Here are a couple views of the replacement sills as they are being installed.  Still missing some fasteners, The metal braces that weld in at the cowl, and there are a couple temporary body bolts are there to aid in the installation.  Also includes a detail of a minor modification I made at the B pillar to be sure water will not get trapped there again!

Paul

[Chris Bryant #19358]

Hi Paul,

Thank you very much for the great pictures! I'm surprised Joe Ceretti hasn't yet chimed in! He has concentrated on getting his running again and I suspect he'll get doing this in the future. He may be lucky, though!

See you at the GN! I'll find you but we will be wearing nametags I am sure.

Cheers,

Chris