22,000 mile Seville

[Chad Oolman]

I am not sure if I am looking for someone to talk me out of buying this car or encouragement to go ahead with the purchase. 

I found this car not far from my home.  It is a 1983 Seville with 21,800 original miles and a factory moon roof.  The car is in excellent shape and totally original.  The dealer that has the car is selling it on consignment for the original owner.  After being stored for many years, it was towed to a mechanic and they spent about $1800 getting the car running again.  I have driven the car, everything works, it's smooth and quiet, and other than needing a good detailing and some new tires (still has the originals), it's like new.  They are asking $10,995.

My hesitation is because of the HT4100 engine which I have heard numerous horror stories about.  The 80-85 Seville has always been a favorite of mine but not a car I pursued because of the engine.  Has anyone out there had a "good" experience with this motor?  I know the 84 ad 85 versions are supposed to be slightly better, but this one is an 83, chrome valve covers and all.

On a side note, can anyone tell me what color combination this is?  In the pictures it looks silver and black, but in person it was more charcoal and kind of warm silver.  I was hoping someone has the 1983 dealer color chart and could fill be in on what combinations were available?  Better yet, is there a color chart online somewhere for 1983 Cadillac?  Or perhaps a scanned image of one.

Any advice, good or bad, would be appreciated.

[jsanford]

Great looking car! Very unique and distinctive. From what I understand the 4100 engine is under powered for such a heavy car, and many of the early units were replaced under factory warranty because of design flaws.
I was looking for this generation Seville or Eldo for the past year (ended up with a low mile '81 Eldo) and they seem to go for well under $10K even in perfect condition. Even if it were a '80 or '81 with the good engine I would still say this one is over priced by a few grand.

Jeremy

[76eldo]

I agree.  The 85's had some updates, but you have to go into any HT4100 purchase with an open mind and the possibility of engine failure.

There is no easy way to swap in anything else, so the 80 and 81 models are at a premium.

It's a great looking car but the low mileage is no guarantee that the head gaskets won't fail shortly after getting somewhat regular use.

To me, at $7000, it's worth the risk.  At the higher price it's not a great deal but if you like the car, that is what's important.

Good Luck,

Brian

[mgbeda]

You asked if anyone had a good experience with a 4100.  My brother bought an '84 CDV in '86.  It had 50 or 60 thousand miles on it when he bought it.  He ran it up to 140,000 miles in 1993, when he traded it in.  Never had any big problems that I remember; certainly not any blown engine.  I should note that my brother is super-meticulous about car maintenance.

But I'd still be a little nervous about any 4100 car.  And though that car is gorgeous, it still seems a little expensive to me.

-mB

[Whit Otis, 1188]

Everyone knows the 4100's pre 1985 were potential trouble. If you love the car (and who wouldn't, it is very very stylish) why not use this as a reason to beat them down on the price?  That's what I did when I bought my '85 Eldorado.  Also, remember this, even if the car is extremely low mileage, you should change all the belts and hoses on it, do a MANDATORY COOLANT FLUSH and give it the pills, and be sure to do the recommended maintenance without fail.  Since this car was produced before the major updates, you should expect to spend several thousand dollars on preventive maintenance. I should think you could beat them way down on the price.  Don't get in a hurry.  If someone else buys it at their high asking price, forget it.  There are plenty of low mileage Seville's and Eldo's on ebay, esp low mileage 85 models with all the engine improvements for a lot less money.  Yes, the 4100 is a dog performance wise, but it is still a great cruiser and tour car.  Beat them way down on the price or let it go.... by the way, did you remove the oil filler cap and look for traces of moisture on the bottom side?  If there is moisture there, run, don't walk away from this car.

Whit

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

For the price being asked, you could definitely find a 1980 or 1981 with 6.0 liter in similar condition as this example.

It will take a bit more time but the rewards - both long term and short - will far outweigh the search efforts.

Additionally, 80/81 also have a much stronger and more reliable transmission as well.

[936CD69]

Chad, I was service manager at a Cadillac dealership from 1985-94. In 1988, we took an 85 Eldorado Biarritz in on trade. It was purchased new at our dealer and had received meticulous maintenance since new, had received all the Cadillac upgrades, and had 42,000 miles when traded. I had our senior technician check it over thoroughly (I trusted his 40 years experience at the dealer with my life let alone a car!) The car was white with red leather, and I loved the style, so I bought it as a weekend cruiser.

About a month after I bought it I took it out one warm spring evening. About 5 miles from my house, within a few seconds the coolant temp and Stop engine temp lights came on. I shut it off immediately and coasted to a stop. Long story short, it had blown the intake gasket AND took off 2 cam lobes!

The Seville in question is a beautiful car, but as it is with any 4100, it's a crap shoot. I also saw many 4100s go well over 100k miles. I agree with the other posters that the price is too high for an 83. I looked at an 83 Brougham recenty, Nugget Firemist with white leather, 60000 miles, owner was asking $4000. I just couldn't get past the 4100....

HTH,  Craig

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Early 1980s RWD Cadillacs were absolutely beautiful cars - and are among the quietest & best riding Cadillacs ever made IMO. Much better riding than the later Broughams of 1987-1992, again IMO.

This makes it all the more a shame that these cars sported Cadillac's worst-ever driveline. (I actually think a diesel is better.) 

Out of curiosity Craig, are you aware of tastefully-done engine swaps in a 4100 car with say a 425, 360 or 350 Olds/Chevy and was able to keep the MPG Sentinel display on the dash working properly?

[936CD69]

Eric, RE: an engine swap. I imagine it could be done, BUT the logistics would be a nightmare. One would have to adapt the digital fuel injection to the larger engine to retain the MPG function. The MPG was a calculation of the ECM. The calculation was based on a constant fuel pressure, and the known flow rate of the 2 injectors, so if the ecm commanded the injectors to open at say, 10 milliseconds per pulse, and it flowed x amount of fuel per ms, and the vehicle speed sensor reported x amount of mph, the ecm could compute MPG quite accurately.
Even the 368 has a displacement nearly 2 L greater the the 4100, so it is very doubtful that the 4100 throttle body would have sufficient CFM OR injector flow rate to feed the 6.0L, You could adapt an 88-92 Chevy throttle body to solve that issue, but you still have the major problem of finding someone to burn a new PROM for the ECM to make the MPG calculations as well as determining injector pulse width. The next issue is the DEFI ECM also controls the Climate Control, specifically AC compressor engagement, as well as several emissions functions. I am sure there are people on this forum that have the skills to overcome these issues, but it isn't me!

If you wanted a carbed 6.0 or 7.0, I believe you could adapt the diesel climate control head for that function...

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Thanks Craig, I figured as much.

I had once been told about a swap with a "good" Cadillac engine - while retaining MPG functions - and it was supposedly "easy".

Needless to say, the needle broke off my internal BS meter.

[76eldo]

An olds 403 can be done but it's a TON of work, you need a donor car for parts, and getting the climate control, cruise control, and lock-up 4th gear is a tough project.

Brian

[bcroe]

A 5.7L diesel has another advantage, its the easiest to bolt in an Olds 350
or 403 if it fails.  The diesel has no EFI that needs fooling.  Bruce Roe

[Dan LeBlanc]

I have to agree with Art. If I can't get in it and drive it without worrying about a bunch of gremlins these cars are notorious for, I wouldn't want to drop money on it. Takes he fun out of owning it. Unless you like to gamble because every turn of the key is a crap shoot with these engines.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Since the 368 4bbl w/ 3 speed THM remained in production until 1984 on CC, I have often wondered if a 368 driveline could have been specially ordered at the factory on a standard size model...

Brian raises a good point about the transmission. The 4 speed Junkametric would also have to go to complete the "trans"formation. 

[TJ Hopland]

Seems like in another 4100 discussion someone suggested that the way to look at is assume it will fail and need to be replaced so have the repair price figured into your total budget.    With that figured in that is where the asking price seems high even with the low miles and apparently very clean car. 

I have done some swaps and agree with what most are saying that it can be done but is a lot of work.   For sure not something you want to have to pay someone to do.  The FWD just ads another layer of complication since there are even fewer donor cars to choose from.

I don't think you could order a car with a different engine.  Too many rules and regulations so they have to think they are going to sell a lot of em to make it worth getting a particular drive line approved.   Its also possible that it would have negatively effected their CAFE rating.    I have read about the 368 being available in those later years but have never seen one in person or for sale.   All the limos and such I saw 82-85 all had 4100's which had to be pretty sad performance wise.     

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Factory RWD Cadillac limousines were equipped 368 V-8-6-4 with THM 400 3 speed transmission as standard. The limousines you saw were stretch conversions of Sedan deVilles most likely.

Yes, performance had to be dreadful on those 4100 stretch conversions.

[INTMD8]

I agree these Seville's are beautiful and unique.   

Personally I would toss the 4100 in the dumpster and drop an LS/4l60 in the car. Even if the mpg sentinel was rendered inoperable the car would be so much better as a whole I could live with it. (and figure out something else for that spot).

[TJ Hopland]

That Seville was the unique to the E body longitudinal FWD setup.  An LS engine would be quite an undertaking and require a lot of custom fabricated parts.   IF it was a RWD then an LS would be a good option.

Transmissions were only BOP so that would be your first issue with a Chev.  The starter also mounts to the trans, not the engine so that may also be a problem with a chev.  Next issue would be the funky oil pan needed to clear the right drive shaft.  Next issue would be needing a place to attach the right drive shaft.

Factory engine options for the 79-85 E body were:

79-80 Oldsmobile 5.7/350 V8 EFI Eldo/Seville
79-81 Oldsmobile 5.7/350 V8 4bbl  Riviera
81-85 Oldsmobile 5.0/307 V8 4bbl Toronado/Riviera
79-85 Oldsmobile 5.7/350 V8 Diesel ALL
82-84 Oldsmobile 4.3 V6 Diesel  Toronado/Riviera

80 Cadillac 6.0/368 DEFI  Eldo/Seville
81 Cadillac 6.0/368 V8-6-4 DEFI Eldo/Seville
82-85 Cadillac HT4100  Eldo/Seville

79-85 Buick 3.8/231 V6 2bbl Riviera
79-85 Buick 3.8/231 V6 Turbo Riviera T type
80-84 Buick 4.1/252 V6 4bbl ALL (not Cadillac 83+)

Since the Oldsmobile V8's shared the same basic dimensions a 403 would also be an easy swap with donor parts from any Olds equipped car.  With a little motivation maybe even a 455 could be done but they are a little taller and wider on top.

Since the Cadillac 368 was externally dimensionally the same as the 472/500/425 those will theoretically bolt in if you had a 368 donor car. 

   

[sding]

Chad, I was service manager at a Cadillac dealership from 1985-94. In 1988, we took an 85 Eldorado Biarritz in on trade. It was purchased new at our dealer and had received meticulous maintenance since new, had received all the Cadillac upgrades, and had 42,000 miles when traded. I had our senior technician check it over thoroughly (I trusted his 40 years experience at the dealer with my life let alone a car!) The car was white with red leather, and I loved the style, so I bought it as a weekend cruiser.

About a month after I bought it I took it out one warm spring evening. About 5 miles from my house, within a few seconds the coolant temp and Stop engine temp lights came on. I shut it off immediately and coasted to a stop. Long story short, it had blown the intake gasket AND took off 2 cam lobes!

The Seville in question is a beautiful car, but as it is with any 4100, it's a crap shoot. I also saw many 4100s go well over 100k miles. I agree with the other posters that the price is too high for an 83. I looked at an 83 Brougham recenty, Nugget Firemist with white leather, 60000 miles, owner was asking $4000. I just couldn't get past the 4100....

HTH,  Craig

Craig what did you do with your 85 Eldo? did you rebuild it

[936CD69]

Yep, new cam and lifters, updated gaskets, and traded it back to my dealer for a sweet 85 Riviera! That was almost 25 years ago!