Authenticity

[Jon S]

I understand why it is so difficult to authenticate what is “factory correct.”  Having worked in the automotive after-market (United Delco, Autolite, Moog, TRW, AP, Walker, etc.) industry in the mid-1960’s, even United Delco replacement parts like fuel pumps did not match the factory-installed ones even for current year models they were designed for.  As I respond to posts, I see way too many incorrect assumptions made and unless we owned our cars new, we really have no definitive answers to what was factory correct.

There are several members (myself included) who have had their cars since new and I would recommend a concerted effort to utilize these cars (and owners) as baselines for authenticity.  What may “look good” is not necessarily how it was. 

Lastly, it is unfortunate that many reproduction parts are way off and with today’s technology, I do not understand how that can be.

[59-in-pieces]

jon,
I think you are spot on.
I've read posts of conflicting descriptions to the point where they became nasty - no need.
I'm not part of any authenticity manual production team, and I can only imagine how tough it is to create one.
Do you think it would be possible to poll the members to find out just how many have cars they purchased new - themselves.
Then, ask if they would make a photo journal of their time capsule cars.
Then, consolidate all the photos into the respective authenticity manuals - sort of a giant update or confirmation process.
Maybe I'm naive, and maybe that is what the other authenticity teams did, or nobody cares because they're after drivers and OEM restorations are not so important.
I can only speak to my perspective of wanting to get the best most accurate information for my cars: 47 - 57 - 59.
Right now, I have "relied on the kindness of strangers" - other members of the club to help me sort out "stuff" (who became pen-pals and more, friends).  And maybe that is the value of such a club as ours, apart from the cold authenticity manuals.
Have fun - and pardon the ramble,
Steve B.

[TJ Hopland]

One question I have for those that have had cars since new is have they also kept detailed records and perhaps photos the whole time and consult those records every time they state what is or was what?   

I'm not 'that' old yet and think I still have a decent memory but looking at my car there are things I don't remember doing just 5 years ago that apparently I did.   I only find out because when I go to do them I find a special tool I made or find the old part on the shelf.   That makes me really wonder if some of these others really remember that say the windshield washer pump on their 55 they bought new is original.   Simple math, the car is almost 60 years old.  If they bought the car new you would expect they were likely at least in their 30's at the time since very few could afford a new Caddy at a much younger age so that puts that person at 90?  I'm not saying you can't be 90 and still have a good memory or good records but it seems with 90+ years of memories that some things are bound to get a little jumbled up.   Even if it was the parents car that still puts them in the 60-70 range and did they actually know everything that went on?

Like was said above about even the genuine replacement parts being slightly different than what the factory put on, what if there was a defect and a part was replaced very early on in its life?   Seems like on any car that was actually driven chances are decent that stuff was replaced at some point.  Not many cars got bought then carefully stored their entire lives.   

[Jon S]

T J - You make some good points and I can only speak for myself.  In my case I have my dad's bought new 1958 that he had me perform the few minor maintenance tasks it needed like oil/filter changes, spark plugs, points/condenser, etc.  I took auto mechanics in High School and learned how to rebuild the carburetor and taught my dad.  During college, I worked for a wholesale/retail auto parts distributor and got pretty involved with car parts/manufacturers.

The 1958 was my dad's weekend car (if it didn't rain) and as such didn't require much in the way of maintenance.  If it needed any parts, AC Delco was the only option as my dad was a stickler for OEM parts on all of his cars.

So, from that perspective I know what was changed and what was/is factory original.  As he got up in his years, he relied on me to maintain all of his cars.  I keep my other original cars the same way as do my sons.  It's a family thing.  Our cars have been placed in detailed magazine articles and my 1981 Corvette is used as the example in a Corvette restoration guide with numerous pictures and commentary.

Steve - I too have gotten into some heated discussions relative to originality and conflicting views and agree - no need for that.  We are all here to learn and do what we think is best for our respective cars.

[Bill Ingler #7799]

Jon: I know what you are saying but there are few who can say " I know my car to be 100 % authentic with all original parts that are the same as when the car left the factory". Most who post on this forum like to be as accurate as possible and even that does not guarantee that what one posts is completely correct. Case in point which happened to me about a couple of months ago. Steve B who has replied to your post has a 47 Cad that he wants to restore. We have become pen pals in trying to find NOS original parts for his 47. One day I emailed him that there was a NOS 1118301 Delco Regulator on ebay which in the late 40s replaced 1118242 as the regulator supplied by Delco as the replacement for 1118242. Both 1118242 & 1118301regulators have the same specs, exact same design but carry different numbers. I got an email back from Steve saying that the 1118301 shown on ebay was not the correct 1118301 but a different year 1118301. Yep- Steve was correct. The one shown on ebay was not authenticity correct for his 47 because the early 1118301 he needed has 2 screws on diagonal corners that hold the regulator cover in place where as the 1118301 that was on ebay came out sometime in the 50s. This later 1118301 has a redesigned regulator cover that has two sheet metal screws low on the cover holding the cover to the base( see picture below) So over the years how many original cars have had replacement parts, correct as supplied by Delco/Cadillac but not all together correct as to appearance.  Memory that one thinks he has of a car and parts correct for that car may not always be correct.  Bill

Picture 1 shows the two early 1118301. The left regulator came out of a box saying Delco 1941. The right 1118301 in picture 1 came out of a Delco Box of 1951. Picture 2 shows the redesigned cover for 1118301. Left box says 1959 and right box says 1964.

[Jon S]

Bill -

I hear you . . . and this is long before Delco incorporated Chinese and other overseas manufacturing!

[Grant Owen]

I wasn't going to comment but I feel as though I have to, reading between the lines of what you have posted Jon is that your 58 should be one of the cars used for Authenticity . All I can say there will never be an Authenticity manual that will be 100% correct. No offence Jon you were a small child when your Dad owned the car new in 58 & the 88,000 miles that it has travelled items would have been changed & replaced due to general maintenance . Jon I have read a lot of your posts & even commented on them , I have even had some of my comments removed , you have been correct on some of the Authenticity topics but you have also been completely incorrect on allot of topics.

[Jon S]

Grant -

I do not personally care if my car is used or not relative to any authenticity documentation . . .  what I do care is that those wanting correct information regardless of year obtain accurate and timely information.  I was brought up in a very car-oriented family (4 generations) and knew by age 14 more than many in their 20's at the time knew.  Not bragging - this is a fact.

I'm here to offer assistance.  Yes, there was one specific topic we disagreed on and I supported my findings with information from two other unmolested cars .  You chose to stick by your guns - that's fine.  We can agree to disagree. 

As to the items changed on the car over 88,000 miles beyond oil, anti-freeze, hoses, fan belts, tires, spark plugs/points and brakes, here is a list of all mechanical work performed:

- Water Pump ((by myself)
- Carburetor re-built 4x (by myself)
- Generator (by myself)
- Radiator (by myself)
- Valve Cover Gaskets 2x (by myself)
- Valley pan gasket (by myself)
- Intake manifold gaskets (by myself)
- Fuel pump 3x (by myself)
- Lower ball joints/idler arm (by mechanic with wheel alignment)

The car has required very minimal mechanical repair over the past 56 years - a tribute to Cadillac Motor Car Division!

I have to say, the car is used purely for enjoyment purposes and starts/runs as new.

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

Jon and all,
I was not going to chime in on this discussion but you all raise VERY significant points.  The only true way to verify authenticity would to be with a list of manufacturers parts and photos used in the assembly of all components.  Even cars delivered to dealers had parts changed prior to delivery when a defect  (recall nowadays) surfaced in the production lines.  I have seen countless early 50's cars equipped with AC that the owners swore were factory installed, when I know "it ain't so", because of the miss-aligned components and inverted devices AND because as a kid hanging out at the dealerships saw them doing these installations.
The authenticity manuals seem to be a "general consensus" of what probably was original done with the best of intentions.  Just like TJ, I bought my 72 Eldo new and always used AC Delco replacement parts.  Due to improvements in the parts themselves there4 were changes  (in the replacement parts) from original, and other than the (seemingly) thousands of 1976 Eldo convertibles that were bought as "investments" and immediately placed in long term storage, all of the cars out there were driven, used and maintained.  As mentioned above it is fantasy to think a 60 or 70 year old fuel pump, radiator hose tire, or you name it will not deteriorate to the point of failure immediately upon use.
The authenticity is nice, however IMHO we are driving enthusiasts out of the hobby when we make it a contest of cubic money. 
Greg Surfas

[Jon S]

Gregg -

You bring up a good point - the Dealerships were a fun place to hang around in the 1950's/60's.  The Service Manager became a friend and I learned a lot watching/talking to the mechanics.  Not any more!

[59-in-pieces]

To all,
I guess for those of us who try for OEM in our restoration efforts, we can only get as close as our money allows and our personal sense of "a job well done" will satisfy.  Thanks mentor Bill for the regulator examples.
Ever watch the Velocity cable channel, when at these rarefied air competitions - .....Isle & ......Beach, even the judges/commentators disagree.  Those cars are as old as dirt, and offered up by guys who - it might be said - have more dollars than sense,
I did get one take away from this exchange, which I will use in the future - thanks Gregg - "CUBIC MONEY".
Have fun,
Steve B.

[Robert Kimberlin]

 Hi Jon, everybody
Authenticity has always been important to me. I know as Grant has said there will never be an Authenticity manual that will be 100% correct. In life there are few things that are 100% and yet I still think it is still worth the effort. To see a car as it was when new and factory correct really takes you back to another time.

[Jon S]

Robert -

Totally agree!!!