1960 engine/trans mated. Engine wont turn. w/pics.

[paulkersey]

Hello again
This weekends problem.

Mating the engine and trans together. It looks right. The whole assembly turns up until about 1/4" on tightening to full trans mount.

When the mount is complete the crank wont turn.

The manual shows I may need some washer/spacers underneath the stamped flywheel plate tangs or? I did add the shim to the

crankend and have nothing that looks close to part 0.669. I also do not see any shim/washers for the 4 nuts/tangs in that illus.

I have not pulled everything apart yet.

[Scot Minesinger]

Have a 1970 Cadillac and have bolted several trans to engines together.  Being an engineer from what you describe, the final joining of the engine and trans puts a stress (force parallel with crank shaft) on the coupling that does not allow it to turn when that last 1/4" gap between block and trans is closed up.  This seems like you have too much spacing bushings between flywheel and trans mount.  Try loose bolts and no spacing(bushings) between flywheel and trans mount and then join trans to engine block, if turns by hand (do not engage starter) you know spacing between engine flywheel and trans is not correct.   

[TJ Hopland]

Is this like later transmissions where the torque converter had several 'steps' as its inserted in the transmission?   If it is I would say the converter is not properly engaged with the pump which is the last step as its installed.   Lots of damaged pumps and broken bell housings due to that issue. 

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Let's go back to the start.   

(1)   Did the fluid drive turn before installing the Trans to the block?
(2)   Did the engine turn before mating up the Trans?

If so, then look for a bolt that is too long, and catching somewhere.

You shouldn't be trying to bolt up the drive plate until the trans case is bolted to the block.

There are no washers required, and .669 looks like the bolt that you are showing in your first picture, the one fastening the Fluid Drive to the Drive Plate.

The spacer you show appears to be correct.

But, it looks new, so could you actually be trying to run 2 spacers?

But, for it to be turning only 1/4", there is something binding terribly.   Will it move backwards?

Bruce.

[paulkersey]

Bruce,
You covered some good points.
1. dont know if fluid drive turns separately. It turns mnow untill trans is 1/4" away from engine.
2. Engine turns forward and backward 360 degrees.
I did have a few threads attaching a few studs of the stamped drive plate before torqing the trans the last 1/4"
I suppose its time to pull it apart and try trans bolt up first, then the stamped flywheel 4 bolts.
That crank spacer is a stock photo from Google images. I installed a used one. I did not have a crank spacer originally.
Don't know if it was lost during rebuild, never had one from the factory or? anyway, I put one in. It is the only thing I added.
Why does the manual show I need spacer washers under the 4 flywheel nuts? I do not have any.

No forward or backward engine rotation.
So I guess I will pull the assembly entirely apart, bolt up the trans./engine then fasten the 4 nuts to the stamped flywheel.
I would consider losing that crank center disc washer to see if that it also but I hear its needed and probably is not my problem.
I will also try to spin the fluid drive/ring gear when they are apart tomorrow.
Thanks again I will check back.

[Roger Zimmermann]

According to the master parts book, the spacer between crankshaft and flywheel is used from 1957 to 1962. However, the shims between drive plate and flywheel is used only from 1956 to 1959.
Was the transmision overhauled before you tried to mate it with the engine? Usually, if smothing is not in place into the transmission, you cannot install the last metal clip. According to the description from you problem, I suspect that something is wrong in the transmission.

[Smedly]

I would agree with TJ. Remove trans from engine block and spin the torque converter while lightly pushing in and see if it drops back in, maybe it is not fully engaged into the pump.
Sheldon Hay 

[Roger Zimmermann]

Remove trans from engine block and spin the torque converter while lightly pushing in and see if it drops back in...

This transmission has no torque converter, but a multi-pieces fluid drive. The elements must be removed one after the other to find the cause of binding. 

[paulkersey]

Yes trans was also overhauled.
The only thing I added was that crankshaft end disc/washer
I guess that answers my question on the 4 flywheel nut washers. my images are from a 1959 manual.
I didn't see anything about the 4 washers in the 1960 update.

I will pull the two apart and spin the trans tomorrow.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

I searched through my '59 Manual, and couldn't see the drawing showing the .669 bolt.

You must have obtained the page out of a generic book, as no manual I have ever seen indicates anything that might be available for a vehicle two years ahead of production.

Bruce.

[Roger Zimmermann]

Bruce, the  bolt from group 0.669 is the bolt  in crankshaft for the drive plate, bolt used from 1956 to 1962.
As I wrote yesterday, the 1960 car does not need the 4 shims.
An idea, if the transmission was correctly asembled: maybe the plug/spacer is cocking in the bore or not the right diameter and not able to go to its proper location.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

G'day Roger,

One of the problems with looking at an incomplete drawing.

I take it that the .669 is a reference to Crankshaft Parts in the Parts Book.

Bruce.

[Roger Zimmermann]

I take it that the .669 is a reference to Crankshaft Parts in the Parts Book.

Yes Bruce! But it's 0.669 (and not .669), zero is the engine group, while the other numbers are withing this group. But I assume you know that!

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Yes, meant that.

Bruce.

[Dan LeBlanc]

The way this all bolts together, spacer or not, the whole thing should turn, so we can remove the spacer from the equation.

The flexplate on the back of the engine bolts to the flywheel and torus on the transmission.  Does the engine rotate freely with the flexplate bolted to it?  If not, then perhaps one of the bolts retaining the flexplate to the crankshaft is too long and is binding on the engine block.  That's the only potential source of binding on the engine side - a flexplate to crank bolt that's too long and hitting the block.

If the engine turns freely with the flexplate attached, you're tearing into the transmission to find the source of binding as there is ample clearance between the torus and bell housing, so there should be no binding there either, and, if I recall correctly there are studs protruding from the flywheel to which you use nuts to mate the flexplate and flywheel together, so, unless the studs were somehow replaced and too long and hitting on the block when reassembled, there is nothing there that should be the cause either.  When the nuts are on the studs, you should have very little protrusion of the stud beyond the nut.

[paulkersey]

I found it.
Bruce it was stacked disc washers at the crank end. I feel like an a** for wasting my time and all of yours.

I bought what I thought was going to be a brass piece after viewing that one brand new polished one in the pic and didn't even notice the
dirty steel one still in place. 20.00 and a lot of grief later... I am bolting er back together hopefully for the last time.

Thanks all.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Great news.   When I found mine, it was laying in the dirt of the driveway where I unloaded it after the engine was delivered from the mainland.

Luckily it didn't fall out whilst being transported, or I would never have known what it looked like, or where it went, or even if I was missing one.

The reason the engine wouldn't turn was because you were applying so much pressure to the Crankshaft Thrust Bearing surface, that trying to turn it would have destroyed the bearing, and done more damage.

Bruce.

[paulkersey]

Hope I didn't jostle anything out of place. I was going easy on it.

I put new bolts, some washers and lockwashers in place of the original belllhousing bolts.
It just seemed more secure than OEM steel bolt head straight onto bare aluminum only.

Thanks for being my second brain. Onward.

[txturbo]

There shouldn't be any washers used. The Bell housing bolts go in with no washers of any kind. I use to work at a transmission shop and no bell housing bolts on any make, model or year use washers on those bolts.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

I agree.   Washers will do more damage, as in digging into the metal, be it Aluminium or Cast Iron, and I have never come across a straight bolt head damaging the area, or coming loose.

Bruce.