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'66 Eldorado - 429 engine

Started by Ralph Messina CLC 4937, August 15, 2014, 09:14:27 PM

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Ralph Messina CLC 4937

I encountered a sudden problem after converting the ignition back to points and condenser. I bought the car with a crude solid state  igniter in the distributor but no one recognized  the brand. I feel more secure with known equipment that can be easily replaced on the road. I installed new points, condenser and vacuum advance using correct Delco items that are NOS from about the 80’s. The car starts easily and idles smoothly.  I took it for a road test and it runs fine under normal load.  I then floored it from a standstill and the engine has a bad miss with the expected shake, something that was not there before. I stopped and torqued the engine and the miss begins about quarter throttle.

Having just done a repair I checked everything I did twice…..because my next mistake will not be my first. Everything is as it should be. I checked the plugs and find nothing broken, burned or fouled. Six plugs looked new and two had tan or brownish insulators near the tip. I will change them next as they are R45S and should be R44. The Delco wires are a  year old and may be causing the  problem by unfortunate coincidence. I will test them at a friend’s shop in the next few days. However, I’m wondering whether old ignition items can be the problem.

1.   Would a condenser malfunction only under heavy engine load or all the time?
2.   The coil looks correct but was painted so I don’t know the brand or whether it’s specific to the solid state item I removed. Would a coil produce these symptoms?

Any help is appreciated,

Ralph

1966 Fleetwood Brougham-with a new caretaker http://bit.ly/1GCn8I4
1966 Eldorado-with a new caretaker  http://bit.ly/1OrxLoY
2018 GMC Yukon

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Ralph,
I will take it for granted that you set the timing and the dwell to specs.  Did you use a "divorced" set of points and a condenser or did you use a "Uniset"?  Also, did you check to be sure the ground wire in the distributor is installed and the screws are tight?
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

Ralph Messina CLC 4937

Greg,

I’m not familiar with the terms “divorced” and “Uniset”. I used a Delco Tune up kit consisting of rotor, and individual points and condenser applicable to my engine. The points were located on the plate by indent or key and the screws are only served to lock them in place. All screws are tight and the ground wire is intact. I did not remove the distributor so I only set the dwell. I did not check the timing after doing this. I previously set it at 6 BTDC about two months ago.

Ralph
1966 Fleetwood Brougham-with a new caretaker http://bit.ly/1GCn8I4
1966 Eldorado-with a new caretaker  http://bit.ly/1OrxLoY
2018 GMC Yukon

Eldo66

Ralph,

The symptoms certainly could be a bad condenser.  (Can allow a charge to accumulate on the points until it arcs across an open gap, usually during load). You can test the condenser if you or your colleague have the electrical testing instrument (see Shop Manual).  But a non-OEM condenser made in Mexico or China is only a few dollars at the local store, so I'd try installing one as a quick test.  If replacing the condenser doesn't cure the problem, then move towards testing the coil and wires.

Regards, P. Nesbitt
1966 Eldorado - Flamenco Red with bucket seats

35-709

I have used (or tried to use) unisets twice, both times they would not work, out of the box.  I would always use separate points and condenser of the best quality I could find --- which Ralph appears to have done. 

A pic of uniset points and condenser is below.  Perhaps brand name quality unisets would be OK.  No doubt my purchase the Advance Auto Parts inexpensive Chinese made ones were the wrong choice.
1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

35-709

1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Just to chime in here, I have tried AC Delco 'Unisets" and been un successful at least 10 times over the years.  I do not understand why, but they do not seem to work for me.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

Lucas Feininger #15674

Ralph, are you trying to use all original AC Delco parts for authenticity?
Lucas Feininger
1965 Sedan de Ville
1965 Eldorado
2014 SRX
CLC #15674

"The only way to travel is Cadillac style"

Ralph Messina CLC 4937

Guys,

First, thanks for the suggestions.

Greg & George, the reason I asked for clarification is locally “Uniset” is called  “one piece”. I wanted to be certain we were on the same page. I am using separate points and condenser.

Lucas, I’m not using Delco for authenticity. Over the years I bought a bunch of replacement Delco parts knowing they were going to become scarce as time goes by.

I just replaced the plugs with AC 41-833 which is the replacement for R44. No good. The miss is still there.

I also checked the dwell again today. Yesterday when I read 30 I must have been reading the wrong scale.  I double checked the meter set up instructions â€" it’s a multiple function meter with different settings for different functions. Now, following the instructions carefully, the dwell reads 15. When I attempt to advance it even a little toward 30 the car wants to stall.  I don’t whether the meter, me or the points are malfunctioning. I will hold on this for the moment.

The only new parts introduced into the ignition were the points and condenser. I’m going to follow an old professor's advice: “When you hear hoof beats, think horses not zebras.” I’m going to swap in a new condenser and see if that helps.

Ralph
1966 Fleetwood Brougham-with a new caretaker http://bit.ly/1GCn8I4
1966 Eldorado-with a new caretaker  http://bit.ly/1OrxLoY
2018 GMC Yukon

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Ralph,
I would suggest you check the timing as well.  The magnetic pick-up may have been in a different position as compared to the points, causing a shift in the timing.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

Ralph Messina CLC 4937

Guys,

GOT IT !!!! Bad condenser. I'll finesse the engine set up â€"timing, dwell, idle â€" tomorrow. Car time is over for today. Now, I’m gonna go see "Guardians of the Galaxy" with some other grown up kids.

Thanks for all your suggestions and help.

Ralph
1966 Fleetwood Brougham-with a new caretaker http://bit.ly/1GCn8I4
1966 Eldorado-with a new caretaker  http://bit.ly/1OrxLoY
2018 GMC Yukon

Eldo66

Ralph -

That's great news.  While an NOS Delco condenser made in the 1980s should be better made than the foreign knockoffs made today, some were always defective.  And even a good NOS condenser can dry out over 30 years, esp. if not stored properly.  Like vintage Petrus - the bottle looks perfect on them Internet pictures, but you can get it home, pull the cork, and watch $2000 worth of sedimentary, sludgy vinegar ooze into your decanter. 

I think I'll go replace mine as well.

Regards, P. Nesbitt
1966 Eldorado - Flamenco Red with bucket seats

Lucas Feininger #15674

Ralph -- glad you got your engine problem solved. Hope you enjoyed the movie.

I liked the quote from your old professor. Very apropos. Sometimes when I get stumped on something I remember another favorite quote "tomorrow is another day."
Lucas Feininger
1965 Sedan de Ville
1965 Eldorado
2014 SRX
CLC #15674

"The only way to travel is Cadillac style"

Chuck Swanson

#13
Ralph, why not go with Breakerless SE.  Still looks all original unlike others.  From the website: http://www.lectriclimited.com/mainpage.htm

The BREAKERLESS-SE single wire ignition kit is designed to convert all 1957-74 GM V8 engines equipped with window-style distributor cap, screw-on type rotor, stock coil, and single or dual points, to solid-state electronic ignition. These maintenance-free modules will insure your car maintains its maximum performance. By utilizing a fully integrated trigger and power module, the  entire kit fits completely under your distributor cap.

How is this module different from others?
Although Lectric Limited did not develop the first electronic ignition conversion, we have developed what we feel is the best. Lectric Limited offers the only electronic ignition conversion kit that has no additional wires protruding from the distributor, only the original point's wire. The result is a reliable, state-of-the-art ignition with an absolutely stock appearance. (See below for more details and features.)


I did with my '69 and it ran great.   Using on all my old cars and never going back to points again :)  Chuck
CLC Lifetime
AACA Lifetime
Like 65-66 Club: www.facebook.com/6566Cadillac
66 DeVille Convertible-CLC Sr Wreath, (AACA 1st Jr 2021, Senior 2022, 1st GN 2022 Sr GN 2023), Audrain Concours '22 3rd in Class.
66 Sedan DeVille hdtp
66 Calais pillar sedan
66 Series 75 9-pass limo
65 Eldorado (vert w/bucket seats)
65 Fleetwood
07 DTS w/ Performance pkg.
67 Chevy II Nova (AACA Sr GN 2018)
69 Dodge Coronet R/T

Ralph Messina CLC 4937

Chaz,

I have no issue with electronic ignition if I know what it is .The electronic unit the car had no name or brand on it and no one could identify it. I didn’t want a problem on the road with no way to fix it.  A standard breaker points set up is easier to fix, assuming the NOS ones in my trunk aren’t degraded from age like this condenser was …..At worst they are available at NAPA or Autozone.

Ralph
1966 Fleetwood Brougham-with a new caretaker http://bit.ly/1GCn8I4
1966 Eldorado-with a new caretaker  http://bit.ly/1OrxLoY
2018 GMC Yukon

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

George,
I know you asked Ralph this question, but if I may chime in; the 429 (mine and most all I have ever had anything to do with) are a bit cold blooded. They can be sensitive to choke, timing and carburetor settings.  Once warm they will usually purr like a kitten as long as all the parts are in the same room. 
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

Ralph Messina CLC 4937

Greg,

“….purr like a kitten as long as all the parts are in the same room.” ….. What a great expression and a very accurate description of cold operation. 


George,

I’m still waiting for the rebuilt Carter for my Eldorado. My Brougham has a Carter and behaves similar to your description. It can sit for months and all I have to do is press the pedal once to floor and it will start on the first few revolutions. For the first 15-20 seconds on highest idle its smooth. Then as the idle steps down it will run with a slight shake until I kick the idle off. At that point even though its cold it runs as smooth as it gets. I’ve never seen a 429 run as smooth as the first generation 331-390 ci  or flatheads. They are the ones you’ll hear stories about balancing a quarter in the radiator while running.

If the car runs fine once warm, I doubt it needs a rebuild. You can check the obvious things on the choke by looking straight down into the carb.  With engine cold, push the throttle rod wide open once and release. Look for two things to happen. You should see a good squirt of fuel from the accelerator pump and the butterfly should close completely â€" and stay closed. Start the car without touching the pedal â€" be certain no one’s face is still over the carb - and the butterfly should open no more than 1/8”. As the engine warms up you should see the butterfly open all the way to vertical. On the Bakelite choke cover there’s an index which ideally should be reading at the middle mark. That cover can be rotated to increase or decrease the spring force the choke exerts on the butterfly and how soon it opens. If major adjustment is needed the choke rod can be bent. I would not recommend doing this without knowledgeable help near by.

I always use a tach to adjust the carb, because I’m not good enough to do it by ear or hand in the fender. The large screw controls the air flow at idle. Opening the screw (counterclockwise) increases the amount of air. You want the leanest mixture that gives the highest RPM. So open the screw to the peak RPM then back off ¼ turn. The two smaller fuel screws impact performance as the carb shifts from idle to higher RPM. You should adjust these in the same manner as the large screw to achieve peak RPM then back off ¼ turn. The smaller right and left screws effect the right and left sides of the carb. If everything is set up ideally, carb condition, timing, dwell etc. the engine should not shake because both cylinder banks are receiving the same fuel mixture. If it does not, try tweaking â€" no more than ¼ turn - one or possible both of the smaller screws to reduce the shake.

HTH,
Ralph
1966 Fleetwood Brougham-with a new caretaker http://bit.ly/1GCn8I4
1966 Eldorado-with a new caretaker  http://bit.ly/1OrxLoY
2018 GMC Yukon

cadillacmike68

Quote from: Chaz Swansen on August 17, 2014, 01:09:01 AM
Ralph, why not go with Breakerless SE.  Still looks all original unlike others.  From the website: http://www.lectriclimited.com/mainpage.htm

The BREAKERLESS-SE single wire ignition kit is designed to convert all 1957-74 GM V8 engines equipped with window-style distributor cap, screw-on type rotor, stock coil, and single or dual points, to solid-state electronic ignition. These maintenance-free modules will insure your car maintains its maximum performance. By utilizing a fully integrated trigger and power module, the  entire kit fits completely under your distributor cap.

How is this module different from others?
Although Lectric Limited did not develop the first electronic ignition conversion, we have developed what we feel is the best. Lectric Limited offers the only electronic ignition conversion kit that has no additional wires protruding from the distributor, only the original point's wire. The result is a reliable, state-of-the-art ignition with an absolutely stock appearance. (See below for more details and features.)


I did with my '69 and it ran great.   Using on all my old cars and never going back to points again :)  Chuck

Why???

I've always used the Delco uniset P& kit. 

My car starts in about 1/10 of a second - faster than the 2009 STS and 2011 CTS.  Why mess with it? You're not racing the car - or are you?
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike

Julien Abrahams

Yes, I think my '67 429 has about the same problem. Recently changed the carb (previous one was too badly warped) and it just seems like these 429's are a bit cold blooded. If I do a cold start, it runs a little rough for say 10 seconds, then smooths out and all is fine from then on.
1954 Cadillac series 62
1967 Cadillac Sedan De Ville HT
1969 Austin Healey Sprite
1979 Opel Kadett

Chuck Swanson

Quote from: cadillacmike68 on August 17, 2014, 10:41:27 PM
Why???

I've always used the Delco uniset P& kit. 

My car starts in about 1/10 of a second - faster than the 2009 STS and 2011 CTS.  Why mess with it? You're not racing the car - or are you?

Please see the link for the reasons.  No not racing.   I'll paste some of the benefits of going to electronic ignition here. 




CLC Lifetime
AACA Lifetime
Like 65-66 Club: www.facebook.com/6566Cadillac
66 DeVille Convertible-CLC Sr Wreath, (AACA 1st Jr 2021, Senior 2022, 1st GN 2022 Sr GN 2023), Audrain Concours '22 3rd in Class.
66 Sedan DeVille hdtp
66 Calais pillar sedan
66 Series 75 9-pass limo
65 Eldorado (vert w/bucket seats)
65 Fleetwood
07 DTS w/ Performance pkg.
67 Chevy II Nova (AACA Sr GN 2018)
69 Dodge Coronet R/T