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Dad's car is now in my garage - your help is requested

Started by Joe V, September 06, 2014, 09:43:11 PM

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Joe V

My Dad reached that time in life when he needs to be closer to family and further away from the cold northeastern winters. I flew to NY on Labor Day weekend, packed him up and we drove to Florida. He now lives close to my brother and I.

Now old men come with old cars.  Packing him up also meant trailering down his 30 year project.  A 49 Series 62 that just recently under went a complete motor and trans rebuild.

Over the last few years, as Dad has aged, he has had to rely on others to work on his 49. I would travel up north often and inevitably spend my time there working on the car with him. It was super quality time, and brought us back to an earlier time in life when we worked together on old cars years ago.  I was the lucky kind of kid that had a 57 Chevy at my disposal during high school in the 70s. And while my Chevy was a real "driver" he made sure old cars were always at our disposal to work on and drive. I can't tell you how many hours I spent under old cars during my teenage years, but in line with Dad's plan they kept me out of the mean streets where we lived.

For my Dad and the car, the down side to depending on others to do all the work has been both the cost and frustration endured to get things done little by little as he could afford it over the years. But of all hundreds of cars he has owned in his life, the 49 holds a special place in his heart. He remembers the day he first saw one in 1949 when the insurance man with an office on the ground floor of the building he lived in, parked in front of the office after picking his up at the cadillac dealer. Gun metal grey with a black leather interior. A memory retained for more than 70 years.

So the 30 year project is now safely in my garage. As has been the case, the car both benefits and suffers from the many hands that have been laid on it. Engine rebuilders, transmission rebuilders, numerous carburetor experts, and numerous mechanics. Some excellent mechanics.  Some not so excellent. And my Dad, no longer able to bring it all together to run like a Swiss watch.

So this beautiful car that I have known and worked on with him off and on over the last 30 years is in my hands along with the directive from him to make it run like a Rolex. According to Dad, the car is in a good place because "someone who cares about it is working on it" and he has "every confidence in my ability to do a great job". A high compliment from a father to a son. 

In the week I have had the car, I have sorted out a number of issues that come with complete rebuilds and have it starting like a champ. Looks like the engine guys were the right ones.

That brings me to my request for help. My current issue is that there is no power when called for.  Engine idles like a champ but give it gas fast and no power. It powers up when accelerated slowly, but give it the gas and it's sucking air. I'm systematically working through all the things that could cause such a problem along with being very suspect of the carburetor. That last serious carb expert that rebuilt it for my dad said it was warped and could not be resurface flat because of the tubes that extend beyond the sections of the carb. He compensated the warpage with two gaskets but when I spoke to him on the phone he was not absolutely confident.  My first thought was why did he charge my Dad if that was the case but that's another story.

I took the filter out of the filter bowl and I was not at all impressed with the volume of gas flowing from the pump. The pump is another component that has been rebuild by multiple experts. My next step is to eliminate the entire fuel system from gas tank to pump connect and attempt to run from a separate container to eliminate all pump, vapor lock, filter, and other potential issues. If that does not make a difference I'm ready to chuck the carb and go with a later model intake manifold and carburetor. That is not my preference since the car is all original, but you have to cut your losses sooner or later.

So my request to you is to fill this thread up with any ideas you may have, instructions you can give, solutions you have developed, advise on how to troubleshoot, or any other information you may be able to give to identify this cause of this problem.

Your help is greatly appreciated and I hope the short story about my Dad, another fellow and true Cadillac loving guy, serves as partial compensation for your help.

dplotkin

#1
An engine that idles well, makes no untoward mechanical sounds or vibrations but will not produce power sounds out of time, badly retarded. First thing I would do is put a timing light on it.

Fuel so insufficient as to make no power would cause copious backfiring through the carb from the lean mixture. You may very well have a lean mixture too but diagnosing poor running should begin with verification of timing, points dwell and plug condition/gap. If you say the car will eventually reach top speed then the main metering circuits of the carb are OK. A non-squirting accelerator pump would cause a hard stumble or stall.

I would check for a exhaust restriction too, perhaps a rodents nest in a muffler.

Dan
56 Fleetwood Sixty Special (Starlight silver over Dawn Grey)
60 Buick Electra six window
60 Chrysler 300 F Coupe
61 Plymouth Savoy Ram Inducted 413 Superstock
62 Pontiac Bonneville Vista
63 Chevy Impala convertable
63 Ford Galaxie XL fastback
65 Corvette convertable 396
68 Chrysler New Yorker

Jay Friedman

I agree with Dan and would not "chuck the carb and go with a later model intake manifold and carburetor".  The Carter WCD Model 722S carb used on '49 Cadillacs was "state-of-the-art" in it's day and when in good condition a '49 motor will run beautifully with it.  In my opinion they are superior to the 4 barrel carbs Cadillac used from '52 onwards, as they are easier to work on and cause fewer problems. 

While it could be that carburetion and the rest of the fuel system is your problem, before delving into it I suggest checking out the ignition system.  Check the gap and condition of the contact points and the distributor overall, which is most easily done by removing the distributor from the motor because of its location at the back of the motor.  Next, when you re-install the distributor, as Dan said you will have to set its initial timing with a timing light which could be another cause of your problem.  Neither of these procedures is difficult to do and instructions are in the '49 Cadillac shop manual.  If you don't have a shop manual, there are a couple currently for sale on ebay, includng this one:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1949-Cadillac-Original-Factory-Shop-Chassis-Service-Manual-49-/251624241375?pt=Motors_Manuals_Literature&hash=item3a95f938df&vxp=mtr

Possible fuel problems include a clogged fuel line or filter as you mentioned, a worn out accelerator pump in the carburetor as Dan said or a bad fuel pump.  When your carb expert said the carb was "warped and could not be resurface flat because of the tubes that extend beyond the sections of the carb", which tubes and and which section of the carburetor was he referring to?  If any of the sections of are indeed warped, you may be best off buying another carb for parts and switching the section that is bad or if you can find an excellent carb use the entire unit.  Look on ebay or call the Carburetor Shop, Eldon MO. 
1949 Cadillac 6107 Club Coupe
1932 Ford V8 Phaeton (restored, not a rod).  Sold
Decatur, Georgia
CLC # 3210, since 1984
"If it won't work, get a bigger hammer."

Joe V

Timing spot on manufactures mark and timing shows vacuum advance working with acceleration. New plugs with gap checked, new wires and relatively new coil. Points spot on and distributor set. All as defined in shop manual.

I'll verify that pump is squirting as this was a known issue and reason for the latest rebuild.

Warpage, I was told, is between main carb body and lower throttle body.

The Tassie Devil(le)

G'day Joe,

You have an email that requires your attention.

Thanks,

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

cadillacmike68

That's a very nice automobile. Best wishes in your endeavors towards getting it all right.
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike

Caddy Wizard

Having had several old Cads with the Carter two-barrel and later cars with Carter and Rochester 4-barrels, I can agree with Jay F on this point 100%.  A 49 with the 2-barrel Carter will run beautifully.  It would be a huge mistake to switch to something else.
Art Gardner


1955 S60 Fleetwood sedan (now under resto -- has been in paint shop since June 2022!)
1955 S62 Coupe (future show car? 2/3 done)
1958 Eldo Seville (2/3 done)

59-in-pieces

Joe,
The photo brought me back to my childhood when my father brought a 49 home in the same yellow color, black top - although I recall the leather being maroon color, could be wrong.
Your Dad's car is a beautiy.
Have fun,
Steve B.
S. Butcher

bobchaney

Joe,
I agree with the others. Don't chuck the carb/intake manifold. I too recently inherited a 1949 series 62 when my father passed away. He had been working on it for 15 years and it's in various stages of doneness. I'm currently rebuilding the carb and installed a rebuilt fuel pump. If you've checked timing, my guess is you've got a weak accelerator pump. I got my carb rebuild kit from the Carburetor shop in Eldon as others have mentioned. If you suspect the carb isn't rebuildable, I'd search around for either a rebuilt carb or the parts that are needed. If you pull the carb apart you should be able to have a machine shop check flatness. And with a modern CNC mill I'd be surprised if it couldn't resurfaced. Just my two cents worth. Good luck.

Bob
1949 Cadillac 6269X
CLC# 28432

Joe V

It is never good to ignore sage advice. 

So I am focused on getting everything running right with the original intake and carb.  I have a replacement carb section on its way (thank you Jay) and another original carb option if this Frankenstein carb I have does not perform as it should after replacing the warped section.  I also found that the motor has 52 heads, which were completely rebuilt with hardened seats as a part of the engine redo.  I will live with them provided they are not contributing to the power issue.  However, I have posted an add in the Wanted to Buy Section for a set of original heads and will watch the auctions with goal of obtaining and rebuilding (in the future) to bring the car back to original configuration. 

Hopefully carb changes will take care of my power issue and then one more original 49 will be one step closer to completion.  Thanks to all for the advice.