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79-85 Eldorado convertibles. Here are the differences between ASC and Hess

Started by 76eldo, September 11, 2014, 12:04:58 AM

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76eldo

I took a bunch of my photos from cars I own or used to own and created a web reference showing the numerous differences between the 84-85 ASC Eldorado conversions, and the Hess and Eisenhardt cars:

http://www.sheffieldgarage.com/asc_hess.htm

Hopefully this will be of use to people that want to know the differences between these two cars.

Enjoy,

Brian
Brian Rachlin
Huntingdon Valley, Pa
I prefer email's not PM's rachlin@comcast.net

1960 62 Series Conv with Factory Tri Power
1970 DeVille Conv
1970 Eldo
1970 Caribu (?) "The Cadmino"
1973 Eldorado Conv Pace Car
1976 Eldorado Conv
1980 Eldorado H & E Conv
1993 Allante with Hardtop (X2)
2008 DTS
2012 CTS Coupe
2017 XT
1956 Thunderbird
1966 Olds Toronado

C.R. Patton II

All good men own a Cadillac but great gentlemen drive a LaSalle. That is the consequence of success.

76eldo

I'm working on a 1981 Hess right now. The window and seat switches from an 85 Seville are drastically different.  Not only just the bezel but the actual switches themselves are different. 

The 85-85 switch assemblies may be built just for those cars or sourced from another model.


So many parts will interchange but thee are a lot that are completely different.
On ebay you see parts that say they fit 79-85 Eldorado but there are a lot of parts that fit 79, 80-81 or 82-85, but not all years.

Brian
Brian Rachlin
Huntingdon Valley, Pa
I prefer email's not PM's rachlin@comcast.net

1960 62 Series Conv with Factory Tri Power
1970 DeVille Conv
1970 Eldo
1970 Caribu (?) "The Cadmino"
1973 Eldorado Conv Pace Car
1976 Eldorado Conv
1980 Eldorado H & E Conv
1993 Allante with Hardtop (X2)
2008 DTS
2012 CTS Coupe
2017 XT
1956 Thunderbird
1966 Olds Toronado

joecaristo

Joe Caristo

76eldo

Hi Joe,

We both learned a lot working on these El Doggs too!
Lol

Brian
Brian Rachlin
Huntingdon Valley, Pa
I prefer email's not PM's rachlin@comcast.net

1960 62 Series Conv with Factory Tri Power
1970 DeVille Conv
1970 Eldo
1970 Caribu (?) "The Cadmino"
1973 Eldorado Conv Pace Car
1976 Eldorado Conv
1980 Eldorado H & E Conv
1993 Allante with Hardtop (X2)
2008 DTS
2012 CTS Coupe
2017 XT
1956 Thunderbird
1966 Olds Toronado

JerRita

Thanks Brian for all your work I will take some detailed pictures of my 84 H and
E touring suspention convertible and send them to you I have more differences to add JeRita 
								
Jerry and Rita Trapani #15725 Caddymaniacs

76eldo

Hi Jerry,

Yes, please feel to send pics and info.
I think I will expand the web page and incorporate it into a source for info on Hess cars.
Currently, there is nothing on the web as car as a website with much info on these cars.

I also registered a new domain, www.icollectcadillacs.com.
It's not set up and there is no actual site but I thought the name was a good one.

It can be a site for info and photos as well as discussion and ads.

Coming soon.
Brian Rachlin
Huntingdon Valley, Pa
I prefer email's not PM's rachlin@comcast.net

1960 62 Series Conv with Factory Tri Power
1970 DeVille Conv
1970 Eldo
1970 Caribu (?) "The Cadmino"
1973 Eldorado Conv Pace Car
1976 Eldorado Conv
1980 Eldorado H & E Conv
1993 Allante with Hardtop (X2)
2008 DTS
2012 CTS Coupe
2017 XT
1956 Thunderbird
1966 Olds Toronado

76eldo

Will,

It's not really a case of Cadillac using two different factories.

The ASC cars were an actual Cadillac offering, with parts in the parts books, references in the service manual, and a factory VIN designation as an EL67 convertible.  I consider them "Factory convertibles" because of those reasons, even though not all of the work was done in an actual Cadillac factory.  Other disagree, but that's OK.

Hess was an independent company, offering their coach building services to buyers of Cadillacs.  I am not sure of the actual process involved and I cannot recall ever seeing any H & E cars sitting on dealer lots or in the showrooms.  I think that the buyers of new Cadillac Coupe DeVille's and Eldorado's that wanted convertibles coordinated the H & E cars through the dealers.  I do know that the AC cars were ordered through Cadillac dealers and I have a window sticker for one of mine that came through Colonial Cadillac in Trenton NJ.  It's an 85 ASC Biarritz.

I have owned and torn apart several of each type, restored and put them back together again.  Hands down, the ASC is easier to work on as far as the rear upholstery.  The rear upholstery panel on the ASC is a one piece design made of fiberglass with a vinyl skin matching the interior upholstery.  This piece includes the rear speakers and courtesy lights.
Hess used the original courtesy lights from the coupe sail panels and incorporated them very slickly into the headliner nof the top.  They go off as the top is lowered so that they don't burn the bunched up fabric if the doors are open when the top is down.  So no lights in the rear, and covered up speakers that you cannot hear at all with the top down on a Hess.  Still have lights and speakers in the ASC with top up or down.

See photos 1 and 2 showing and ASC rear seat area.

See photos 3 and 4 showing a Hess rear seat area.  Photo 5 is a Hess rear interior courtesy light.


Also the convertible top assembly is made better, and the front latches are more robust.  The H & E latches are a poorly made casting, very close to, but not interchangeable with the early 60's GM latches and have a poorly designed lever to latch the top that breaks easily and it impossible to replace.

However, I will live with all of this in order to own a 1980 Eldorado convertible,  It has the 368 engine and runs and feels more like a Cadillac than the later cars with the HT4100.

I believe that in 1984 and 1985, there were 2300 Eldorado convertibles built each year.  In contrast, I doubt that H & E made more than 50-100 Eldorado's each year.  They also made the LeCabriolet from Coupe DeVile's from 1978 on up to about 1981.

To sum it up, ASC did their work under the factory scrutiny, H & E were completely independent.  Warranty service was available through dealers on all of them.

Brian
Brian Rachlin
Huntingdon Valley, Pa
I prefer email's not PM's rachlin@comcast.net

1960 62 Series Conv with Factory Tri Power
1970 DeVille Conv
1970 Eldo
1970 Caribu (?) "The Cadmino"
1973 Eldorado Conv Pace Car
1976 Eldorado Conv
1980 Eldorado H & E Conv
1993 Allante with Hardtop (X2)
2008 DTS
2012 CTS Coupe
2017 XT
1956 Thunderbird
1966 Olds Toronado

76eldo

Here is the H & E warranty documentation from my collection of stuff...

The window sticker from this car said nothing referencing it being a convertible.

Brian
Brian Rachlin
Huntingdon Valley, Pa
I prefer email's not PM's rachlin@comcast.net

1960 62 Series Conv with Factory Tri Power
1970 DeVille Conv
1970 Eldo
1970 Caribu (?) "The Cadmino"
1973 Eldorado Conv Pace Car
1976 Eldorado Conv
1980 Eldorado H & E Conv
1993 Allante with Hardtop (X2)
2008 DTS
2012 CTS Coupe
2017 XT
1956 Thunderbird
1966 Olds Toronado

Big Apple Caddy

Weren't the H & E conversions, including price of donor car, a fair bit more expensive new than the "factory" ASC 1984-85 Biarritz convertibles?

76eldo

I don't know. It wouldn't surprise me because of the custom nature of the work.

If you factor in the Biarritz cost on the ASC cars it might have been close.

I don't have any price info on the cost of a Hess car when new.

Brian
Brian Rachlin
Huntingdon Valley, Pa
I prefer email's not PM's rachlin@comcast.net

1960 62 Series Conv with Factory Tri Power
1970 DeVille Conv
1970 Eldo
1970 Caribu (?) "The Cadmino"
1973 Eldorado Conv Pace Car
1976 Eldorado Conv
1980 Eldorado H & E Conv
1993 Allante with Hardtop (X2)
2008 DTS
2012 CTS Coupe
2017 XT
1956 Thunderbird
1966 Olds Toronado

76eldo

All of these cars leak and have side window alignment issues.

New car buyers did not appreciate that aspect of convertible ownership.

They also had relay boxes behi d the back seat that delayed the lowering of the top by a few seconds and lowered the rear quarter windows automatically.  If the box fails and you bypass it you better drop those windows before lowering the top. With the windows up, the top will bind on the way down and might shatter the quarter glass.  Spares are almost non existent.

Brian
Brian Rachlin
Huntingdon Valley, Pa
I prefer email's not PM's rachlin@comcast.net

1960 62 Series Conv with Factory Tri Power
1970 DeVille Conv
1970 Eldo
1970 Caribu (?) "The Cadmino"
1973 Eldorado Conv Pace Car
1976 Eldorado Conv
1980 Eldorado H & E Conv
1993 Allante with Hardtop (X2)
2008 DTS
2012 CTS Coupe
2017 XT
1956 Thunderbird
1966 Olds Toronado

76eldo

They are cool to drive.

My 80 feels like a cross between a 76 Eldo and and 85 Biarritz convert.

The increased weight of the 368 over the 4100 gives it a better feel, in my opinion.

The exact opposite of what they wanted to do with the 4100  8) but I like it.

As far as the small backseat, I used my 85 Eldo convert as an everyday car in the early 90's with car seats in the back for my kids.  We took a family vacation in it driving all through parts of PA, going to amusement parks, private zoo's, lakes, etc.  Lots to see just in PA.

That car, with the 4100, never let me down, and continues to run well even after being parked outside for 7 years. 

Brian
Brian Rachlin
Huntingdon Valley, Pa
I prefer email's not PM's rachlin@comcast.net

1960 62 Series Conv with Factory Tri Power
1970 DeVille Conv
1970 Eldo
1970 Caribu (?) "The Cadmino"
1973 Eldorado Conv Pace Car
1976 Eldorado Conv
1980 Eldorado H & E Conv
1993 Allante with Hardtop (X2)
2008 DTS
2012 CTS Coupe
2017 XT
1956 Thunderbird
1966 Olds Toronado

sding

Quote from: 76eldo on September 15, 2014, 09:54:09 AM
All of these cars leak and have side window alignment issues.

New car buyers did not appreciate that aspect of convertible ownership.

They also had relay boxes behi d the back seat that delayed the lowering of the top by a few seconds and lowered the rear quarter windows automatically.  If the box fails and you bypass it you better drop those windows before lowering the top. With the windows up, the top will bind on the way down and might shatter the quarter glass.  Spares are almost non existent.

Brian
Brian, is this the case with the ACS & H&E cars. on my 1985 ACS all the windows go down when I lower the top.
Thank

76eldo

Yes, on mine too.
But the Hess cars will explode the windows if not down when the top goes down.

Brian
Brian Rachlin
Huntingdon Valley, Pa
I prefer email's not PM's rachlin@comcast.net

1960 62 Series Conv with Factory Tri Power
1970 DeVille Conv
1970 Eldo
1970 Caribu (?) "The Cadmino"
1973 Eldorado Conv Pace Car
1976 Eldorado Conv
1980 Eldorado H & E Conv
1993 Allante with Hardtop (X2)
2008 DTS
2012 CTS Coupe
2017 XT
1956 Thunderbird
1966 Olds Toronado

sding

Quote from: Big Apple Caddy on September 15, 2014, 09:31:49 AM
Weren't the H & E conversions, including price of donor car, a fair bit more expensive new than the "factory" ASC 1984-85 Biarritz convertibles?
It is my understating that in 1985 a factory Biarritz convertible ran $33,000.00 new. and a new 1985 corvette cost $26,000.00!

76eldo

Brian Rachlin
Huntingdon Valley, Pa
I prefer email's not PM's rachlin@comcast.net

1960 62 Series Conv with Factory Tri Power
1970 DeVille Conv
1970 Eldo
1970 Caribu (?) "The Cadmino"
1973 Eldorado Conv Pace Car
1976 Eldorado Conv
1980 Eldorado H & E Conv
1993 Allante with Hardtop (X2)
2008 DTS
2012 CTS Coupe
2017 XT
1956 Thunderbird
1966 Olds Toronado

Big Apple Caddy

Quote from: sding on September 16, 2014, 02:20:28 PM
It is my understating that in 1985 a factory Biarritz convertible ran $33,000.00 new. and a new 1985 corvette cost $26,000.00!

The base price of the 1984 factory Biarritz convertible was just over $31K and just over $32K for the 1985 model.  Typical options could push sticker prices up another $2K or more.

The convertibles were about $8K-$9K above the sticker price of comparable Biarritz coupes.

sding

Quote from: Big Apple Caddy on September 16, 2014, 06:29:39 PM
The base price of the 1984 factory Biarritz convertible was just over $31K and just over $32K for the 1985 model.  Typical options could push sticker prices up another $2K or more.

The convertibles were about $8K-$9K above the sticker price of comparable Biarritz coupes.
What options did the Biarritz not have?

76eldo

You can get the same level of performance, safety, and even more practicality with a base Sedan DeVille. If you are buying a Biarritz convertible you are buying a car to be noticed in.

My opinion.  I never bought one new by the way.
Brian
Brian Rachlin
Huntingdon Valley, Pa
I prefer email's not PM's rachlin@comcast.net

1960 62 Series Conv with Factory Tri Power
1970 DeVille Conv
1970 Eldo
1970 Caribu (?) "The Cadmino"
1973 Eldorado Conv Pace Car
1976 Eldorado Conv
1980 Eldorado H & E Conv
1993 Allante with Hardtop (X2)
2008 DTS
2012 CTS Coupe
2017 XT
1956 Thunderbird
1966 Olds Toronado