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1950's Limousine Market

Started by BJM, September 11, 2014, 03:42:33 PM

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BJM

3 years ago I went to see a seller in Newton Iowa who had collected every year of Cadillac limousine from 1950 to about 1963. He restored a 58.   He is in the Newton city limits and is grandfathered in but has had his inventory for sale for years. Inside one work building he has several high value unfinished Cadillacs such as late fifties Biarritz, and a Seville.

Anyway, I first expressed interest in one of his limousines maybe 10 years ago and he wanted $2500 or so.  I have since visited him 2 more times and emailed him with offers.

He has an Imperial (Cadillac division window) inside, was next to the 53 Durham (see current CLC Buy/Sell) that he wanted $4500 for 2 years ago. Now he has answered an email that he wants $7500 for that same car.

I usually only buy projects. I am 50 and whatever I get now, will be my last.  I love the LWB cars from the golden age because they represent the hobby for me, more so then a 2 door hardtop or a convertible.  To each his own.

I am efforting getting a rare 1942 Packard 180 Limousine from Canada presently that I will have $5000 in once delivered. Complete, non running, inside stored for 30 years.   I have also communicated with a seller of a rare 46 Packard Custom Clipper division window in New Orleans for $2200 obo with an agreed price below that.

I don't think I am lowballing because of the extreme cost to restore and transport at least the far away ones to Iowa. 

So you don't think I am just a Packard fan, I have also sent an offer to Easy Jacks in Junction City Kansas where they had a 1941 and a 1947 67 and 75 series 7 passenger LWB cars for sale. (Frankly the 67 would not likely fit in my garage)

I offered $1500 for either car, both of which have been there for 35 years and show significant outside degradation.   Frankly, I would MUCH prefer the 56 Cadillac 75 that was in the Newton Morton building. It was black of course, and exuded that 1950's glamour of movie stars and celebrities.  It was rough, having been stored for 25 years or more, but was more solid then his outside cars.

Since he had one of each year I was able to compare and contrast.  I narrowed my interest down to 1955 1956 or 1957.  The 1957, for those who are in the know on 75's was the start of a new body style.  56 was as I believe, the last of the classic bodies and interiors which were hand fitted essentially.

So I want that 56.  All of his limousines require full restorations to really make them shine and make them worth showing and enjoying.  We all know that anything in the fifties not a convertible, maybe even the Eldorado Broughams. are instant upside downers.

A recent Packard limousine went up for sale, a very nice 1947 long wheelbase car, a Clipper 21st series, for $48,500 and the seller admitted he had $70,000 in the car. That is pre-tons o' chrome. 

So the reason I gave the back story is to show what's going on.  I want to add the 56 75 series to the garage and restore next to the 1942 Packard 180, both I want to have $7500 in, then drop approximately $75,000 each on them over the next 7-8 years, turn 58 and be done and have a couple of what I like available for driving, shows and general old car hobby enjoyment.

Why can't sellers understand that if you spend $7500 or $10,000 on a limousine, you can get drivers for that price in some years (not a limousine)

The question to the experts is:  is this fellow in Newton who keeps basing prices off price guides correct?  Has the #5 or 6 condition limousine market reached a demand where prices are skyrocketing for full-on restoration candidates? 

Is there anyone else out there restoring a 75 series car from this era and what was your entry fee? 

Finally after seeing this guy raise his price over the last 10 years on essentially the same car from $2500 to $4500 to $7500, I finally sent him a tersely worded email stating he is not going to sell all of his limousines for price guide pricing.  Yes, I understand they are his cars and he will likely see them get crushed or sold at an auction someday after he passes. 

But we as an old car community have seen several salvage yards close in the last few years where owners were obstinate and the cars got crushed.  Mine is all about timing. At age 50, I don't have any more time to mess around losing $35,000 to $50,000 or more for the cars.  That's like burning $100,000 if I get 2 cars and even more important, is I don't want to sell them when I am done, I want to enjoy their company!   So maybe my widow or daughters sell the cars much later on.

I have just about given up on purchasing a 55-57 Cadillac 75 series, and now I have burned this bridge so close to home.  For those who say "buy the best car" this is the best I can do.  Few restored 75's come up for sale in "driver" quality each year.  Even fewer restored ones and besides, I would like to put 2 limousines back in the collective "gene pool" rather then leave them to further rot away.

Please comment on the current 75 series market from the 40's and 50's to help me decide whether I continue to look or move along. 

Thanks
Bryan Moran
Des Moines, IA 

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

#1
Sounds to me you need little guidance and are well aware of the travails, toils, and economics involved.   

Market on Series 75 cars is what it had always been: Highly specialized, highly limited - with some, albeit modest - appreciation potential while being extremely expensive to restore.

As much as I advocate buying the best in general, I feel this is all the more imperative with Series 75 cars, especially post 1949.

Clearly a Series 75 is a car reserved for the utmost of devotees. 
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

Series75

Having owned and restored several, a 57, a 61, a 61, a 62 I'll disagree with opinions that they are so much more expensive to restore, the air conditioning yes but chrome is chrome, paint is paint, upholstery is well you guessed it.   The 57 turned more heads than any of the others.   It is the most un-limo like in styling of the 1950 -  1965's in my opinion. 
Regarding your backgrounder I'm torn between Fred S's increasing values and a guy who essentially believes $500 - $1,500 cars should maintain a seller audience even though these days lunch for two at a fast food joint is $20.00.
You probably burned a bridge in Newton, my in-laws hometown.  And just as we'll.  Fred can get more if the price of steel goes up and he crushes them.  His surprise (and potentially your dilemma if you bought one) is these are essentially rust buckets and too far gone.
The ratio of driver cars on the market and buyers seem to never change much.  10 -15 years ago classic limo for rent we're popular but it seems the broader limousine market appears to be shrinking. (It shrinks?)

All they represented and stood for seems to be going out of vogue these days.
"Restoring" is kind of vague.  Do you weld, metal fabricate, paint?   I think if you budget $7,000- $10,000 you'll be ahead of the game.  You're gonna spend it anyway.
Tom CLC#6866

BJM

Tom
It sounds like you have met Fred.  I always enjoyed my visits to him, he could not have been nicer. When it came time to pricing, he would pull out an Old Cars Price Guide and just quote it and that's it, no negotiating. 

Crusher price is always misunderstood.  Many say it's $400 a ton, maybe, if you deliver it to Alter Metal. if not, the transporter might pay you $300 for the whole car.

Many of his limousines have been outside for years and have 3 shades of lichen growing on them and the wheels are buried in the ground.  He usually wanted $2000 to $3000 for those.

Will anyone buy the rare Durham for his non negotiable asking price of $10,000? 

I've had to move on.  I would love to tag team my Packard Limo with a Cadillac.  By the way, Fred has a 57 75 Limousine and it was easily my 2nd choice. His is a divider 75 and I loved the doors as you know Tom are intergrated into the roof. It was next to a 54 and a 55 and it was obviously lower then those 2 years.

It's crazy liking limousines and LWB cars.  I want to restore a couple old ones and let people sit in them at car shows. 


Cadcliff

I have a few limos at the moment, including a 56 Derham and a 57, 58 and soon to be had 59, also have a 60 on Ebay right now.

Pictures at www.fotki.com/cadcliff
Cliff Graubard
CLC #1430

1955 Cadillac Broadmoor Wagon x3
1956 Cadillac Broadmoor Wagon- One of two
1955 Eldorado- bronze
1961 Cadillac Biarritz-bucket seats
1964 CDV- Silver/Red Every option
1960 Cadillac Eldorado Biarritz
1940 and 1941 60S
1961 Cadillac Convertible
1965 Cadillac Convertible

okccadman

I love old limos.  I have a 56 Derham and a 76.  Its a shame that they are worth about as much as a series 62 sedan when they originally cost so much more.  I think there will always be a market, though somewhat less than a "regular" Cadillac due to sheer size for a nice one at a fair price.  As far as his 53 Derham, I would be scared to see what rust and rot is under that padded top.  Mine has LOTS of damage from only a couple years exposed to the elements.  Mine spent its 1st few years in the Rockefeller family garage then the second owners garaged it with the exception of about 10 years in the 70s and time was not kind. That padded top is just a sponge to retain any moisture the car encounters.  I think $10,000 is very optimistic for that 53.  I didn't pay anywhere near that for mine.  Cliff has a few nice limos.  I really like his 56 Derham.
Jim Jordan CLC# 5374
Oklahoma City, OK

55 Series 62 Sedan
56 Series 62 Coupe
56 Fleetwood 75 Derham Limo
59 Fleetwood Sixty Special
66 Fleetwood Brougham
66 Superior Hearse/Ambulance
67 Fleetwood Sixty Special
68 Fleetwood Eldorado
76 Coupe de Ville d'Elegance
90 Brougham
92 Fleetwood Coupe
93 Allante
94 Fleetwood Brougham
02 Eldorado Commemorative Edition

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

There is an exceptionally nice 1960 near me in NEPA that the owner is looking to sell. I believe its a Limousine (w/division).

PM me if interested. 

A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

jaxops

I hesitate to reply....but yes, there are a lot of limousines out there still and it IS a specialized market.  How many of us "kooks" want to spend the money to restore these beasts (not a "coupe" or "convertible")? Everything aft of the front clip is longer, and different than the sedans and coupes.  Painting them in black takes a lot of extra work and the roof is a tough customer for even experienced painters.   I would pay $7,500 for a complete 1956 limousine depending on rust and condition today.  I've been looking at 1960 limousines and the rougher, junkier ones seem to start at $7,500.00.    I would say keep looking.  The 1956 Series 75s come up from time to time so there are still quite a few around.  I'd say your email closed the door with the collector in Iowa.  Keep your cool and keep looking!!
1970 Buick Electra Convertible
1956 Cadillac Series 75 Limousine
1949 Cadillac Series 75 Imperial Limousine
1979 Lincoln Continental
AACA, Cadillac-LaSalle Club #24591, ASWOA

BJM

Thank you mark. I understand my email ended that relationship but where was it leading anyway? A higher price each time I inquired!

I hope I provided him with some common sense pricing information about his cars and feel that no one has up to this point. Typically, if a sales price is too high, people politely walk away. 

As to costs to restore a 50's Cadillac limousine being no more or less then a standard 50's Cadillac, there is some truth to that in regards to the chrome, drivetrain, but as some have noted, black paint needs to be flawless on a huge canvas, I believe 75's have special wheels and brakes, that a/c, and most of the interior was premium fabrics. If I am not mistaken, some wool.

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

Sheer acreage significantly magnifies restoration cost of a Series 75, if nothing else.

Of course, much also depends on how much in need to begin with.

The other issue is Series 75-specific items - both trim and certain mechanical & body parts, which will be much more difficult (and often more expensive) to obtain - if needed.

Finally, more complex electric & a/c systems attend Series 75s so equipped - which also contribute to the cost.



A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

jaxops

Quite so.  The majority of the interiors were gray broadcloth wool.  That included the seats, door panels, and headliner.  The front leather seat is tuck-and-rolled leather.  My favorite was the YNZ's electric harnesses.  The front was a breeze...then we had to add lengths to every wire to reach the back and the tail lights!  Lots of details to be taken care of for sure, all expensive as well!
1970 Buick Electra Convertible
1956 Cadillac Series 75 Limousine
1949 Cadillac Series 75 Imperial Limousine
1979 Lincoln Continental
AACA, Cadillac-LaSalle Club #24591, ASWOA

Walter Youshock

Interior wise, there was also the Bedford cord seat inserts.  Add on items like the pockets in the rear doors and the jump seats and you're looking at serious yardage.  Finding someone to replicate it all would be daunting.

I always wanted a series 75 but just finding the space to store one is tough.   
CLC #11959 (Life)
1957 Coupe deVille
1991 Brougham

BJM

Thanks. That is why initial cost is important, to me.  I have no doubt that most people that bought these limousines 25 to 40 years ago, as Fred did, paid well below $1000 because they were considered an irritation.  Now, I don't can't see over paying.

My thinking is, every piece of chrome, stainless, every detail in a 75 needs examined, and if found to be acceptable, polish it, clean it and put it back on. But if the part needs rechroming, or restored, then it will add up.  I would try to do the interior correctly.  The wiring? To have Rhode Island or Harnesses Unlimited do a new one based on your old one, probably at least $6000? More? 

It would be a labor of love but a labor none the less.  CLC meets would and are a lot more interesting with Cadillac's 75's, from the 7 passengers of the 20's to the 60's. 

The vast majority of Fred's limousines have been stored outside and in my opinion are ready to be crushed.  Of course they are parts cars, but so few people are doing 75's that those are not in demand. And if you want just a few specific parts, do you want to purchase and transport an over-priced parts car to get it? 

The back story on the 1956 75 Imperial in the Morton building was that it belonged to Meredith Publishing in Des Moines Iowa. Now, Meredith publishes Better Homes & Gardens magazines, Successful Farming but more interestingly, they grew a media empire in the 1950's and early 1960's. Buying television and radio stations. 

Based in Des Moines, I can see Meredith using this car for airport transfers of politicians and notables. Des Moines was much smaller then, but still the Capital of Iowa and there was some old and new money. Few 75's were likely used in those days. Many of the wealthier families drove their cars.   The wealth and need for privacy wasn't like New York City, Chicago or elsewhere. 

Fred said he got the car from Des Moines, where it was under a lean to, or in the back yard and an ad was placed in the paper to sell it. Because he was trying to purchase all the years of 75's in an era, he bought it and hauled it home to Newton, Iowa. 

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

#13
The restoration of nearly any car is a labor of love; of a postwar Series 75, it is tantamount to devotion with the deepest of conviction.

Be prepared for expenditure in the multiple 10s of thousands if you cannot undertake yourself; thousands of man hours in the shop if you can, but still be prepared for some serious outlay in addition to the "sweat equity".

Forget about investment returns, for there will be none - at least for all intensive purposes. 

Again, it should be noted there is a huge difference between cars requiring full blown resurrection and those needing minor "refurbishment".

I repeat, only wholesome examples should be contemplated or, at the very least, cars not in dire need. Also the value of completeness cannot be overemphasized!

Richard M Langworth from Illustrated Cadillac Buyer's Guide summarizes as follows. While one may take exception to some or most of the points made, I feel his (1985) comments are worth noting for the purposes of this discussion - for whatever they may be worth today:

"One finds it hard to recommend a Cadillac Seventy-Five as a collector car, but for sheer presence and awesome size it can't be beat. They are relatively rare, though rarity is not much of a factor here. Whether you really need one of these behemoths is a question you must ponder closely...

...Considerable technical complexity attends all Fleetwood Seventy-Fives of recent years; in this writer's day a kid was expected to be able to take apart an M.G. TC completely apart and put it back together again, restored, with little more than a shop manual. Not even genius kids would attempt that with a Fleetwood Seventy-Five limousine.

"These Cadillacs may be summarized as follows: enormous in every dimension, expensive to buy, run and live with; impossible to restore; absolute bears to service; of little collector potential; and about the most impressive things [ever to have rolled] out of the guarded citadels of General Motors."
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

Series75

Conjecture, specific examples of excessive cost would be helpful. Essentially these cars are about the same size as a 96 Brougham.   Opinions without actual hands on experience actually scare folks from these great cars.   Let us not forget these cars were built with "heavy duty" components, thicker frames and are essentially better, stronger than the economy line Cadillacs.  Tom CLC #6866

jaxops

BJM,

  I think pidgeons are cra _ _ ing on a statue of my wife and I in East Hartford, CT for all of the chrome that car had to have redone!  My car actually fits in the garage...with 2cm to spare at the door- oh and my deepsink has a huge crease and crack in it from bumping it with the rear bumper over the years.
1970 Buick Electra Convertible
1956 Cadillac Series 75 Limousine
1949 Cadillac Series 75 Imperial Limousine
1979 Lincoln Continental
AACA, Cadillac-LaSalle Club #24591, ASWOA

kav

Holy Jesus some of you blokes have fleets of these bloody things ! Do you have professional caretakers for them or do you spend every waking moment looking after them .
I bought a 53 sedan thinking I would buy more . Wish I had the time , money , energy . Kudos to you blokes . I'm bloody jealous .
1953 series 62
nicknamed  SERENA

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

#17
Quote from: Series75 on September 12, 2014, 08:34:30 PM
Conjecture, specific examples of excessive cost would be helpful. Essentially these cars are about the same size as a 96 Brougham.   Opinions without actual hands on experience actually scare folks from these great cars.   Let us not forget these cars were built with "heavy duty" components, thicker frames and are essentially better, stronger than the economy line Cadillacs.  Tom CLC #6866

Tom,

You are extremely talented and very well versed with these cars.

Most of the info here is general in nature, primarily directed at less seasoned folks who may not realize what involvement in a Series 75 entails. For example, many parts that may appear interchangeable with the junior models on casual observation, are in fact not.

Like the big thread on a buying '59 Eldorado Biarritzes, if a Series 75 car unfamiliar to you, you probably shouldn't be buying one - or at least, not until you've done a lot more homework - which is why we are here. 
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

BJM

Quote from: jaxops on September 13, 2014, 07:53:06 AM
BJM,

  I think pidgeons are cra _ _ ing on a statue of my wife and I in East Hartford, CT for all of the chrome that car had to have redone!  My car actually fits in the garage...with 2cm to spare at the door- oh and my deepsink has a huge crease and crack in it from bumping it with the rear bumper over the years.

Mark, I had to laugh.  But, you do own one of these great cars.  Photos?

BJM

Quote from: ericdev on September 12, 2014, 06:58:35 PM


"One finds it hard to recommend a Cadillac Seventy-Five as a collector car, but for sheer presence and awesome size it can't be beat. They are relatively rare, though rarity is not much of a factor here. Whether you really need one of these behemoths is a question you must ponder closely...

...Considerable technical complexity attends all Fleetwood Seventy-Fives of recent years; in this writer's day a kid was expected to be able to take apart an M.G. TC completely apart and put it back together again, restored, with little more than a shop manual. Not even genius kids would attempt that with a Fleetwood Seventy-Five limousine.

"These Cadillacs may be summarized as follows: enormous in every dimension, expensive to buy, run and live with; impossible to restore; absolute bears to service; of little collector potential; and about the most impressive things [ever to have rolled] out of the guarded citadels of General Motors."


These are true statements and I remember reading them years ago.  Which supports my pricing position.   Essentially if every "project" 75 from the golden age era (defined loosely by me as 1938ish to 1958) was given away free, they would still be upside down nightmares. A person buying one would ONLY do so with the intent of 15 to 20 + years of ownership so as to extract the hobby "fun" out of it.  I will never support purchase of a car with the query of "what is it worth", so that's not the issue. 

But - if older 75 projects are $7500, or $10,000 then a person has to say wait a minute, I can get a nice driver 2 door hardtop in the $10,000 to $20,000 range, get in and enjoy it now. 

Plus, I see very few 75's that either actually or inferred by the sellers - have been in their possession for years probably implying they were purchased for $500.  I have NO DOUBT that Fred purchased his cars, including the 53 Derham, for pennies on the dollar. 

Some might say "so what" he is entitled to a profit. Owners of cars can ask whatever they want, but there is not enough market oversight to see if the high surplus of #5 projects ever sell for asking price or any price. 

We are all aware of the "Scottsdale hangover" where a person sitting comfortably in their living room watching Velocity Channel re-runs of the auctions believe that their "ran when parked" cars must be worth 10% of that price place unreasonable prices on their cars.

So, when I offered Fred $2500 for the 56 in the Morton Building, I felt that was fair, but each time Fred responded he raised prices "according to a price guide."  I am starting to sound like sour grapes, but I think the discussion is timely and thank everyone for their comments.