Crazy idea -- remanufacturing 50-55 sedans

[Caddy Wizard]

Here is a great (crazy?) thought for the day:  save the sedans!  Cadillac sedans formed the backbone of the sales of Cadillac cars back in the day, but due to high restoration costs are infrequently restored.  Instead, we save the convertibles, coupes, etc.  Over time, we are losing the sedans, which is a shame.  As someone who has driven Cadillac sedans of the 50s over the last 25 years as daily transportation, I can say that they are extremely comfortable and reliable.  They are just plain good.


So here is my proposal.  We start a re-manufacturing plant to re-manufacture 1950-1955 Cadillac sedans.  We focus on one year at a time.  So we obtain a large facility for creating a disassembly/assembly line to re-make the cars.  Probably need to locate this out west, where the tin worm doesn't thrive.  We buy a large quantity of the particular year model cars (some to re-do and some as donors) and then start an assembly line redoing the cars in bulk.  By doing so, we take advantage of knowledge from the first car to redo the next car more efficiently.  We buy our materials in bulk, saving a substantial amount.  For example, it costs a few thousand to buy the rubber for an old car.  If we are buying a lot of 50 or 100 cars worth, we should be able to get some serious discounts.  We outsource specialty services in bulk as well (things like chrome, engines, transmissions).  We would announce that we are starting the line at some point soon (say 2017) and the first year we would redo 1950 models.  Then later we would move on to 1951 models and so on.  We'd offer them as re-manufactured cars for approximately what we redid them for or at a modest profit.  Target price of $45,000, which as we all know is far less than you can restore an individual car for.  Probably need a $3-4M to start.  So we need a rich benefactor or some crowd-funding. 


As for selecting the 50-55 models, here is my thinking.  We definitely want the modern engine, so that eliminates 1948 and earlier.  I love 1949 models, but there are a number of quirks in the 49s that make them less than ideal or hard to restore (including the retention of knee-action shocks).  In 56 we get the sloppy Jetaway trans and a hotter running engine.  Plus, as the years progressed, the cars became more and more complex.  Maybe later we redo some other years.  But to start, we begin with 1950 and work up to 1955 in seriatim.


What do you think?  Would we find a market for a "new" 1950-55 sedan that one could drive on a daily basis?  If we could line up the funding, I could be talked out of the law practice to run this venture.  Between my background as a mechanic, car painter, obsessive restorer and manufacturing engineer, I have the perfect background for this...

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Personally I think $45K would be a hard sell for a car for which the real McCoy changes hands for a lot less. And seldom does a reproduction anything sell for more than the original.

A nice idea, but the past should be left where it is - as 49er says.

[Andrew Trout]

The gas guzzler tax alone on those cars would be astronomical. According to a quick Google search a 1952 Cadillac got around 11.2 mpg combined. http://www.automobile-catalog.com/make/cadillac/series_62_1946-1958/series_62_1946-1958_sedan/1952.html. That would put a 'new' 1952 sedan in the highest tax bracket, which would add $7,700 to the sticker price of your car. Or $45,000 would be $57,200. You can get a brand new Cadillac sedan for that much.

While the aesthetics of the car are beautiful and they ride nicely, they're also lacking in a lot of modern safety features. Disc brakes, radial tires, crumple zones, collapsable steering columns, airbags, three-point seat belts, higher belt lines, larger pillars in case the car rolls, car seats...the list goes on.

There is a market for a new car that looks like an older car (not to be confused with a restomod!), but has a modern drivetrain and components. But that's a niche marketplace, and tends to be more for collectors with deeeeeeep pockets. The cars are more one-offs, and the price reflects it. 

[Caddy Wizard]

I am not proposing to make replicas.  Instead, we would take the "real McCoy" and restore them in bulk in a factory setting.  Car would still be a used car and shouldn't be subject to gas guzzler tax.


By the way, I have been quite successful at making these cars into reliable daily drivers, with the sort of reliability that you can really count on the car every time.  I don't see why others wouldn't enjoy that as well, even if they only used the car on the weekend...

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

I understand the proposal.

Idea is large scale creation of restomodded cars based on the 1950 - 1955 Cadillac Sedan.

At one time there was a firm that specialized in doing this with Tri 5 Chevrolets - the main difference being that these cars were only built upon specific customer request - allowing each car to be built according to the buyer's specific wishes - ie: colors, interior selections, options etc.

I know someone who bought one of these cars from a supposedly trusted & recommended specialist for big $$$ when all was said & done and took ~ a year to complete. Final bill: $85K. Car was the biggest bucket of bolts when finished - took the car back 3 or 4 times but it was never right. Disgusted, he sold the thing after barely getting any use out of it - taking a titanic-sized bath in the process. (Well, that guy could afford it.)

Main point is that your dealing with a very limited niche market item with tremendous cost variables making final unit cost extremely difficult to predict, on a car which normally changes hands for far less money in excellent original condition - which is virtually guaranteed to hold its value better. 

[Caddy Wizard]

Eric,


Not resto-mods.  No Chevy engines or disk brakes or TH400 transmissions or rack-and-pinion steering.  Very, very minor and subtle refinements only -- things I have learned by hard experience that really work and won't upset the character of the car.  Radial tires that look like bias ply tires.  Dual point ignition plates in the distributors.  Alternators instead of generators.  Fatter sway bars.  Dual circuit brake masters (whenever possible).  Stainless steel brake lines and fuel lines.  Sleeved wheel cylinders for corrosion-resistance.  Seat belts (shoulder belts where practical).  Quartz conversions in the clocks.  MP3 inputs added to the radio.  But keeping the Caddy engine, trans, suspension, brakes, etc.  Keeping 6v on the 50-52 cars (6v works fine if the restorer knows what he is doing).  Car will still be, look like, and feel like a vintage Cadillac.  Only better.  Not a resto-mod -- I have no interest in making ChevroLacs or Cadilets.

[INTMD8]

I think you would end up with a fleet of cars and relatively few buyers.  I like the cars of course but I don't think a 50-55 sedan is universally loved to the point you would sell them in quantity, regardless of how reliable they are.

[Caddy Wizard]

Thanks.  I think there are two main risks.  One, you get the cars done for the budget you set, but the buyers don't show up and as you say, you end up with a fleet of restored 1950 Cadillac's.  The other risk is that you can't do the cars for the budget, no matter how you squeeze costs through economies of scale, and because you are way over budget, you go under even if you can sell the cars for the target price.

One advantage to starting with the 1950 model is that it is simpler than the later cars and will be a tad cheaper to re-do.  No power brakes, no power steering, no electric windows, no AC, etc.  So one might hold to the budget better.  Personally, I think the 50 and 54/55 cars are the best of the bunch (although there are plenty of valid opinions out there about the superiority of the other years), but it would be safer to start with a 50 model rather than a 55 model due to the lower cost.


One could start small by doing a handful of cars at a time.  But that would eliminate the cost-savings from the scale of the operation and defeat the purpose.  I don't think there is a market for restored sedans at $75K or so.  $45K maybe.  But not at $75K.  And if you do a full resto on a single car, you will likely end up well north of $50K...

[Coupe Deville]

So here is my proposal.  We start a re-manufacturing plant to re-manufacture 1950-1955 Cadillac sedans.  We focus on one year at a time.  So we obtain a large facility for creating a disassembly/assembly line to re-make the cars.

CAN I WORK THERE? You just described my dream job.

-Gavin

[Chris Conklin]

I think most of us would have to agree that this doesn't have much validity as a real start-up proposition. Not sure what you could offer to the "investors" if you crowd sourced it. It would be fun to crunch some data and see what derives of it, I don't think $3M-$4M will do it.

For the starting inventory... A quick glance at eBay and Hemmings; there are  a total of 14 sedans listed for '50-'55 year cars. Average price (from Hemmings listings only since they are asking prices) is around $22K. Issue 1: These are two pretty big data bases of cars for sale and there are only 14 "targets" available.

Let's say we can average a purchase price of $12K for reasonable examples. We need to define "reasonable examples" or what we are willing to use as a starting point. Anything too far gone or too modified will be cost prohibitive. Issue 2: Somebody is suddenly buying up all available '50-'55 sedans (us!), sellers price accordingly. Anyway, for 100 cars you're in for $1.2M for unrestored inventory not including shipping and titles. Make it easier, it includes S&T.

Land and manufacturing facilities... I would posit that you are better off in the rust belt as far as prices are concerned. You could probably get some decent incentives as well. But a facility to accommodate 100 very large sedans for restoration would be substantial and probably around another $1M of the funds at the minimum. So we're at $2.2M and sitting in a huge empty building staring at 100 nice old Cadillacs. I think some of us could stop right here and be satisfied, no?  I'd be pretty darned happy!

Some more thoughts/hurdles... In this case, you don't really have any gains in manufacturing by assembly line. These cars will need disassembly and reassembly along with the tracking of all components to assure you are rebuilding the correct car. We won't be grabbing nice new components from the shelf as the car moves down the line. And I think you may want to convert to 12V systems to accommodate the modern components you plan to incorporate. Add A/C to the list of add-ons - all cars have it nowadays (this is a huge hurdle to do correctly in the dash).

I'm running out of time to continue for now. Brainstorm what it takes to go further: Tooling, labor (What skill sets, skill levels? And we'll be paying them for a year without income from the venture), support staff, parts inventory (may need to ascertain our cars' needs prior to parts purchase), insurances, and ? Haven't even gotten to marketing and selling the product yet.

Anyway, I think you're looking at $7M-$8M minimum to start up. So you're looking at selling $80K cars to break even. To target $45K per car you're gonna need a lot of concessions from labor and some really amazing deals on facilities and tooling. If you can get achieve those you're in China! JUST KIDDING, COULDN'T RESIST AT LEAST ONE POKE IN THE EYE!! 

[Caddy Wizard]

I don't know Chris.  Let me get through the next couple of work days and then do some noodling on the financials.  I have done a number of these cars already and know very well where and what the costs are.


It is fun to think about -- heck, look at the long reply you crafted.  You gotta admit, you are turning this idea over in your mind...

[JoeKarasinski]

You could easily do this Mustangs or Camaros since anything and everything is readily available. But any generation of Cadillac I just don't see as possible. The only thing I can picture is a straight up restoration shop which specializes in Cadillac's with a side of restoring and selling either any Cadillac or with a focus on a particular generation. With something like that it could get off the ground very easily and relatively cheap. with a manageable payroll.

Here in Michigan we do have great restoration shops but I think they lack the real aggressive buying and selling end of it like you see on some of those shows on TV, though I could be wrong there since I don't know any of those people personally.

[Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373]

The problem is that it would be new.
A 50's sedan with Dual airbags, ABS, traction control, backup camera, side and curtain airbags, crumple zones, side impact protection, headrests, side marker lights, and several other innovations that have been mandated over the last 70 years wouldn't be the same car.  And with all the techno crap that everyone has, you would need 12 volt to power them. 

Now a shop that just RESTORED them, that's another story.
Jeff

[Caddy Wizard]

Jeff,


I think you misunderstand.  I am not proposing to make new cars.  No, I am proposing to buy a large quantity of 1950-1955 sedans and then restore them in a factory manner.  Put them in a disassembly line and blow them apart, redo everything, put them back together.  They would be restored original cars, not new cars with all new technology.  You'd do them in an assembly line process to do dozens of cars of the same year at once.  That way, you could drive down costs through bulk buying of various services, parts, and materials.  Just take for example rubber parts for a 1950 Cadillac.  The whole package of parts from Steele is probably about $2500 for just one car.  But if you were buying rubber parts for say 30 1950 sedans at once, I bet Steele would cut you a heckuva discount.  Especially if it looks like the next year you are going to buy 30 1951 sets. 

[Caddy Wizard]

Thanks, Art.


Art

[Bobby B]

Art,
Hey…Great topic for discussion and most likely every car fanatics dream job! Datsun (Nissan) tried a similar type program about 15 years ago which involved "buying" back early VIN# 240Z's that were to be restored back to factory spec and re-sold in like-new condition, just like the day they rolled off the assembly line. I don't know every little detail about the program, only that my own personal vehicle fell into the category of donor cars that they were looking for. They fell short of their 200 car goal, finishing only about 40 vehicles that sold in the 30K range to a few select buyers.  Although the idea and the nostalgia of it all generated a lot of interest, there must be some reason why the initial goal was never achieved.
Now…..I have seen an idea that is becoming very popular in Europe amongst the car community, along the lines of your own, which could be refined to a Cadillac "Community" only if that's what your original intention was. Uniting a brotherhood of car craftsman, like thinkers, and just plain lovers of antique vehicles under one roof would be a dream to some people, including myself. If you could find a space large enough for your needs, in an area that was zoned for your specific intentions, that would be a good starting point. You could sell off private "work" areas to individuals with the same passion as your own. Everybody would be responsible for a share in the overhead, utilities, etc. Think along the lines of "Time Share".  Of course you would need some leadership, a voting system on issues, etc. but this concept seems to be working over there, mostly due to  space and government restriction issues. They have a lounge area where you could eat, hang out, watch TV, talk cars, etc. They had a spray booth that they all shared that needed to be booked with a specific lead time to avoid issues. It was really nothing more that a Car Club that incorporated separate work areas. Everybody seemed to get along, laughed, shared tools, offered advice, helped others out, etc. very much in the fashion of the way us "Car Guys" operate. Some people went just to read their paper in peace, get out of the house for awhile, or just lend a hand to others to take their minds off their own projects. Your idea is a step in the right direction. Get the right group of guys together and get started with something. You never know what might come out of it………
                                                                                                                          Bob

                               

[C.R. Patton II]

Hello Art

I like the concept of your proposal.

49er...I like your critical thinking.

Eric...I like your pragmatic approach.

Chris...I like your number crunching.

Jeff...I like your capitalistic viewpoint.

Personally...I would use all of you as my board of directors and...labor pool to produce a sedan, coupe, CCP, and C4D of a 1939 LaSalle.

I can have a crazy thought too.

[jaxops]

They are already doing this for '55-'57 Chevrolets.  It is all new manufactured parts, a chassis or body...or the entire car.  I think they use modern engines with modern suspension and brakes.  These are really new cars with old bodies on them.  The thing is that they look and drive like a great car.  Art's idea is similar but you would need the wild enthusiasm of the nation to do it and make a profit.  '57 Chevys can be stock or muscle cars so they really cross the boundaries for a lot of older and younger folks.

Art- I'd buy one!  Think of it....a real modern-classic Cadillac in brand-new condition.

[Caddy Wizard]

I don't know if the idea would work -- still thinking it over.  But it is a great topic to think about.  I haven't had this much fun on the Forum ever.  Yes, there have been lots of good discussions on the Forum that have been more helpful to me, but this idea is a blast.

[TMoore - NTCLC]

I have seen this done with the early VW's - they were completely rebuilt cars, to original specs, and sold with a warranty - all new everything - rubber, wiring harness, suspension, brakes, trans, engine, etc. - you chose the year, color, options.  At the time (mid 1990s) these cars were priced at $8,000.00.  Of course, that was different animal - lots of carcasses to chose from, and long production run with plenty of repro parts.  I thought it was a great concept, but never have been that interested in the VW (they were on display at one of the big auctions) - not sure what became of the company, and if they survived or not, but it seemed like a winner to me.